The only way to make racing engines equal letting racers put any engine they want on to race.

paulkish

old fart
The real crux of this solution to equalizing engines, is either you end up limiting every engine, making the solution unpopular, because you made every engine a turd.
No one wants to go slower.

If you do not limit every engine, the possibility of making that the engine of choice because it will be similar to what the owner is used to.

Once the limiter is experienced, work will begin on optimizing an engine setup to exploit the characteristics allowed by limiting revs. Either within the spirit of the class, or with a component making the limiter think it is working.

Just how racers think.
I said nothing at all about making all engines a turd, my idea is about possibly making the top performance of engines equal.
I addressed the rate of acceleration could be at different rates for different classes.
No reason a decent popular rate of acceleration giving racers a little or a lot of go fast feeling could not be found.
The problem is having to pay thru the nose to have an engine built to the hilt or cheated.
For instance as of right now I'm thinking you could set the rate of acceleration for a box stock predator to be at the limit of what you'd expect to have with a "real" box stock predator.
If racers paid for more or cheated to get more then the limit of acceleration set and limited, ... so what?
Everyone could do their own little bit more to them for cheap but end performance would still be limited.
 

Bradley71

Member
I wish every track would just go to a open tire rule.it would help kart counts to bc ya can run whatever ya want.burris buying these rules at tracks is horse crap.everyone wants to get rich but dont realize the effect that it plays on the group its aimed at.
 

paulkish

old fart
I wish every track would just go to a open tire rule.it would help kart counts to bc ya can run whatever ya want.burris buying these rules at tracks is horse crap.everyone wants to get rich but dont realize the effect that it plays on the group its aimed at.
A quality open engine of anything is not cheap nor can it be done without knowledge and experience.
Run what you brung is not IMHO the way.
Maybe time run what you brung and class racers per their ability by lap times, maybe, but open engines of any kind are not cheap.
 

Lucky_7

Member
Why build a $3000 dollar, 30 hp motor and then restrict it to 10 hp...whats the point....just run a stock class or a restrictor class....

Stock pred is getting pretty popular, and if its tech'd right, it all comes down to tires, and drivers.
 

Komet99

Member
Why build a $3000 dollar, 30 hp motor and then restrict it to 10 hp...whats the point....just run a stock class or a restrictor class....

Stock pred is getting pretty popular, and if its tech'd right, it all comes down to tires, and drivers.
Or buy a 2 stroke and get that for $1000. I never understood....
 
Why build a $3000 dollar, 30 hp motor and then restrict it to 10 hp...whats the point....just run a stock class or a restrictor class....

Stock pred is getting pretty popular, and if its tech'd right, it all comes down to tires, and drivers.
What motor for 3000 making 30hp is being restricted down to 10hp?
 

Lucky_7

Member
What motor for 3000 making 30hp is being restricted down to 10hp?
What im saying is, why build a motor, to have the most possible hp, then restrict it with what ever this whole post is about.

We already have restrictor plates, they do the same thing, or race a stock class. No reason to build high end motors and then limit them.
 

ABR #69

Member
It's fairly obvious from the comments here most assume as soon as you say equalizing you're wanting to cut the nuts off of them. No one ever said that, just equalize them. Stock would remain relatively the same as it is, but allow other engines equalized to that range. Get it now?

There is a lot like @95 shaw has pointed out that could be used to get around this. But, I'm not getting into that. He's already done a good job there.

Plate engines turn as fast or faster lap times than your precious stockers. But, as most have stated plate racing drives up cost. Sadly from what I can tell there is no way to get out of this situation we've found karting in.

I agree most of the Karting world would benefit from having more Hp, but it also comes down to mentality. Dirt oval has a bad mentality of move them if you can't pass them. This is only perpetuated by pre Madonna Nascar dads that think little Johnny is the next big thing.

[Edit] I'd also venture to say the ones that are so confused are the ones like we see trying to run stock appearing engines in the back of the field of clones. When they could run a JR3 engine with proper setup and tires and win if they knew better. Hp isn't going to make you win unless you have the whole package.
 
Last edited:

Lucky_7

Member
It's fairly obvious from the comments here most assume as soon as you say equalizing you're wanting to cut the nuts off of them. No one ever said that, just equalize them. Stock would remain relatively the same as it is, but allow other engines equalized to that range. Get it now?

There is a lot like @95 shaw has pointed out that could be used to get around this. But, I'm not getting into that. He's already done a good job there.

Plate engines turn as fast or faster lap times than your precious stockers. But, as most have stated plate racing drives up cost. Sadly from what I can tell there is no way to get out of this situation we've found karting in.

I agree most of the Karting world would benefit from having more Hp, but it also comes down to mentality. Dirt oval has a bad mentality of move them if you can't pass them. This is only perpetuated by pre Madonna Nascar dads that think little Johnny is the next big thing.

[Edit] I'd also venture to say the ones that are so confused are the ones like we see trying to run stock appearing engines in the back of the field of clones. When they could run a JR3 engine with proper setup and tires and win if they knew better. Hp isn't going to make you win unless you have the whole package.

So you think stock engines and open engines race together, but limit the opens to the same hp range? Why not just build a stock?

If you make the field more equal wouldn't the "follow the leader/ bump and run" get worse? Someone has to have an advantage somewhere to pass...
 

ABR #69

Member
So you think stock engines and open engines race together, but limit the opens to the same hp range? Why not just build a stock?

If you make the field more equal wouldn't the "follow the leader/ bump and run" get worse? Someone has to have an advantage somewhere whether its setup, tires, engine, driver to pass...
That is the one of the points, to dissuade people from over building engines for stock.

But, everyone claims they want good close racing, but when they're out there they want to lap the field by a mile. The mentality comes from your brain, not how close someone's kart is in performance compared to yours. If you can't setup a pass with equal engines then perhaps you should evaluate your driving talent. Yes, rubbing is racing and there are times that it is unavoidable. But, intentionally moving people isn't the answer.

Any class with close racing can still pass, there are ways to ulitilize momentum, line choice, brake points and driver error, among other things to set someone up for a pass. This is called driving.

None of this is directed at you personally, but more to everyone. There are different levels of driving talent. Equal engines show that more than others.
 

Lucky_7

Member
That is the one of the points, to dissuade people from over building engines for stock.

But, everyone claims they want good close racing, but when they're out there they want to lap the field by a mile. The mentality comes from your brain, not how close someone's kart is in performance compared to yours. If you can't setup a pass with equal engines then perhaps you should evaluate your driving talent. Yes, rubbing is racing and there are times that it is unavoidable. But, intentionally moving people isn't the answer.

Any class with close racing can still pass, there are ways to ulitilize momentum, line choice, brake points and driver error, among other things to set someone up for a pass. This is called driving.

None of this is directed at you personally, but more to everyone. There are different levels of driving talent. Equal engines show that more than others.
No worries, Just talking here.

I guess we have a pretty close class of racing here. We do have some instances of "moving" someone, but generally if you get passed you probably screwed up, or they are just faster.

I think tech is the issue for building motors out of spec. Ive, seen one time the track dug deeper than the carb....Im a pretty honest guy and cant bring myself to cheat. I do build motors and make sure to push the boundaries of the specs. We mostly have to make sure tires are in perfect shape to be able to run up front.
 

nobozos

Member
Me personally I like UAS . Yes it can get expensive even extremely expensive but it gives ya plenty of leeway to build something you can call yours. There is stiff competition all over the country especially in the southest. Also we are not at the mercy of tire manufacturers and wholesale engines. Granted it's not for all but it's nice to know you might have the power to pass rather than ride around in single file. I know the pro stock clones guys are not much off our times but put them both on the track together and I know who my money is on. just my 2 cents later Chuck.
 

paulkish

old fart
What im saying is, why build a motor, to have the most possible hp, then restrict it with what ever this whole post is about.

We already have restrictor plates, they do the same thing, or race a stock class. No reason to build high end motors and then limit them.
Nobody is suggesting that
 

RadialFin

Member
Interesting take. It might sound "simple" but it's not easy in execution. Making a thing that follows a given acceleration curve isn't hard.... making it behave the same on a range of engines and drivers? Not so easy.

You'll likely find different engines will react differently to the restriction strategy deployed by the "restrictor". Higher RPM engines will react differently to lower RPM ones if you're using an ignition cut strategy. You could probably do a lot with an ignition retard curve, with the consequence being extra heat out the exhaust and torched exhaust valves?

Drivers\builders could play with inertia and crank weights too, limiting the "fall" of the dip as the restrictor tries to maintain the curve. Of course you'll have to tech the unit and it's sensors too.

There's also the challenge of what to reference for speed. GPS is not really an option, I doubt it's granular enough to have the desired effect in the confines of a small kart track. Especially those with marginal GPS signal. But that's something that could be tested. Actually the race pro I have coming soon would be interesting for this.

Another granularity issue is the single pulse per revolution on the engines, to control the power curve adequately you would probably need a trigger signal to manage a combination of RPM advance changes and/or ignition cuts.

That leaves you with axle RPM to measure speed/acceleration. Of course then you can play with tire circumference... so that's kinda pointless. You'd probably have to run a speed sensor that's driven by the tire itself in some way.

If you're expecting to run different engines and so on, I'm not sure that fixed gearing would be practical.

Could be an interesting side project along with the EFI I'm working on since the microcontroller could already handle the signals, would need some firmware programming to be done though. It would be a fun project, but I don't think it has any merit in karting really.
I honestly think the most interesting thing would be to see the creative ways people try to get around the system.

More I think about it the more curious I get though. Something that could run a mix of engines together, Subaru OHC, Clone 190, tillotson 212, Honda GX190 > 260, Predator etc etc.

Like some mentioned though, picking what that acceleration curve should look like is difficult too. You're either going to have to force the slower engines to build up some, bring the most powerful ones down... or some combination of both.. You would also need to be very specific about the engines you allow and it might be the case that each engine will require different programming to match the curve.

If someone's willing to fund development I can have something built, designed and tested. Like I said, a lot of the components are already in the ECU I'm working on. That also the easiest part of this though.
 
Last edited:

RadialFin

Member
There's also the elephant in the room of cost. Before you know it, you've doubled the cost of a "stock" predator.
I've put some napkin math below on what it would cost the driver because I'm sure a few people will think that you can just slap a few components with an Arduino dev board and go.... To an extent that's probably true, but by the time it gets to production to be used on racing karts... that's not going to be the case.

Retain stock coil.
Trigger wheel: $30
Crank sensor: $20
GPS (or wheel\road speed sensor): Lets say $50
Computer to work the magic: (Potted, staked, IP67 enclosure) $150 pretty easily
Total $250

You'll also probably need a charging coil, or battery to run the system. Possibly a throttle position sensor.. which in itself becomes a potential tech item.
 
Last edited:

ABR #69

Member
Once racing goes electric a simple chip will set the power/torque curve.
Yeah, but then you have to pay the few who know how to get around it. This is all man made. So we have to have some diagnostic tools to fix and calibrate the systems. So someone will have back door access, who is the question.
 

"J'-remy

Member
no rules racing was called Can Am. it brought about the Chaparrals, McLarens. Shadows and the infamous Can am Porsche 917/30. in the end it failed because of the money
 
Top