The REAL epidemic😮

G

gary10

Member
Karting has a real epidemic and it has nothing to do with a virus.
I think we can generally agree karters and dads/mechanics get on here to ask questions to go faster. Unfortunately, all we ever see is the same type of questions about gearing, carburetor tuning and clutches. If parents and drivers put half the time/effort into proper driving technique instead of these comparably meaningless topics they would have much more success. Although I really enjoy helping people in general, it seems completely pointless to answer these questions about carbs and clutches when 99.99% of the time more speed can be found by asking a question about driving technique. Even after answering all the questions parents and drivers almost never find the speed they are looking for and continue to be frustrated, searching for that perfect gearing combination, clutch lockup, and carb tune. Usually this search never ends for most and it leads to buying more carbs, clutches, engines, and go karts when driving is the source for the speed your are missing.

Yet, when was the last time someone asked about driving? I understand it’s pretty easy to just try different springs in your clutch or move the carb needle clip to see if you go faster but most times it’s not even a controlled test you can draw a definitive conclusion from. Being able to diagnose improper driving technique and knowing how to fix it is obviously more challenging than changing a gear and seeing if you run a better lap time.

To conclude, you are chasing a tenth or two in the carb tuning, gearing and clutch COMBINED when there is almost always a half second or more to be found in driving. Please start asking the hard questions about driving and actually begin getting the results you are hoping for. Watch your driver and compare them to the faster kids. The clutch isn’t why you are getting beat out of the corners and down the straightaway. It’s almost always the driving. If you aren’t able to see the difference then you should ask someone with more experience on how to improve your driving. Please just focus your effort where it matters most.
Ps I do understand this is a 206 engine forum but it doesn’t change that these things are wasting time for so many and keeping them from reaching their actual goal.
 
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I agree with what you're saying to a certain degree but I have to add a little bit on my thoughts.
EVERYONE has a different driving technique....EVERYONE has a different line every lap and not one lap line will ever be the same.
Teaching someone to drive is something that even the best of the best can't duplicate a perfect line IF they ever find one. Sure, lap times may say you were exact but you can almost bet your line was off just a smidge and somewhere you made that up to get that little time back. Orrrrrr, if you measured down to the .0001 you'd find it dang near impossible to see a number match another lap.

Mechanics though, are more reliable when it comes to making changes. Mechanics are broadly more equal from 1 to the other. Everyone has the same amount of clips to adjust the needle to....everyone has the same main jet size, emulsion tube, venturi and so on according to rules.
I consider the mechanical side of racing more of a control in an experiment and everything else is the test. A motor, clutch, tires etc can all be teched to keep everyone EQUAL.....but you can't tech driving skill.
That's why I see people asking so much about mechanical stuff is because if you can at least make the mechanical side equal to everyone else, that's one less problem to solve and can focus on driving technique.....which can't be obtained easily by just asking someone.
So to ASK someone how to drive...I'm not sure how you'd do that lol. You can walk the track with me and show me YOUR line, but that doesn't mean that THAT is what is going to make ME the fastest.
 
As a driving coach it’s obvious that most just have a poor driving technique. The absolute best drivers almost always tend to drive the same line with very similar technique. The phrase “driving style” is highly overused in my opinion.
 
gary10 said:
As a driving coach it’s obvious that most just have a poor driving technique. The absolute best drivers almost always tend to drive the same line with very similar technique. The phrase “driving style” is highly overused in my opinion.
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After several years of searching we were finally able to connect with a great coach and it's been well worth it. It was just very hard finding someone qualified who would actually come out and do it.
 
Tires determine fastest theoretical speed.... Chassis setup and driver efficiency determines how much of that speed you can access. If your tires aren't right, no amount of setup or driving can overcome that. But once your chassis and tires are within say 5% of the fastest possible, the driver becomes nearly 100% of the factor. It all must be addressed together. Focus on the biggest percentage loss first.
 
This post may not be for everyone but there are so many people that will benefit from realizing the driving is where their effort is best focused to get improvement. Sure, it’s obvious you’d love to have the perfect kart/engine setup, but it’s simply not worth sacrificing the opportunity to work on driving to pick up a tenth working on the kart. “Don’t step over dollars to pick up pennies!”
 
Ted Hamilton said:
Tires determine fastest theoretical speed.... Chassis setup and driver efficiency determines how much of that speed you can access. If your tires aren't right, no amount of setup or driving can overcome that. But once your chassis and tires are within say 5% of the fastest possible, the driver becomes nearly 100% of the factor. It all must be addressed together. Focus on the biggest percentage loss first.
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Exactly. But most times guys that are spending so much time working on the kart are also keep good tires on the kart in sprint racing. If we are talking dirt oval then tires are more important than driving if we are talking about drivers with decent experience.
 
gary10 said:
This post may not be for everyone but there are so many people that will benefit from realizing the driving is where their effort is best focused to get improvement. Sure, it’s obvious you’d love to have the perfect kart/engine setup, but it’s simply not worth sacrificing the opportunity to work on driving to pick up a tenth working on the kart. “Don’t step over dollars to pick up pennies!”
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In all sincerity, what questions would you like people to ask on here that you're not seeing? Better yet, what advice do you have to give about driving on a forum that'll make an overall difference to everyone at various tracks with different setups/lines/classes etc?
You could literally chalk an entire line around a track that is a perfect drive and tell me to hit it in a certain time....but if my setup is off, I'll never be able to do it. The absolute best drivers could probably make the lap time you want with an incorrect setup....but I'll bet they weren't following the line you gave them?
 
gary10 said:
The phrase “driving style” is highly overused in my opinion.
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In sprint racing I found my "Driving Style" to change considerably during the races.
In the beginning I would find myself driving "super aggressively" to get the tires up to temp and get the kart rolling as well as overtake early.
When I realized it was hooking good I'd change to a more "conservative" style as to not risk throwing the kart off the track and overtake with "technique".
Driving style to me is a very real thing and it can cause unnecessary "moves" to cost you a race.
I've seen kids bulldoze over others and make terrible moves yet any coach that works with them says "it's just how he drives".
My coach learned early on that I was more aggressive than others so he changed how he taught and showed me areas I could use my style to overtake where others wouldn't.
 
Mac,

I dont think you are seeing Gary's point. Let me give you an example:

Someone shows up to the track. They run a 32 second lap (imaginary here). They make some clutch changes, carb changes, gear change. Get down to a 31.7. Gary then gets in their kart (assuming he weighs the same or heavier) and runs a 31.0. That is what he is saying. There is more time in driving properly than there is in tuning an engine and/or clutch.

And before you say this would never happen, I have seen it with my own eyes multiple times from this Gary10 fella himself.
 
Mac_49 said:
In all sincerity, what questions would you like people to ask on here that you're not seeing? Better yet, what advice do you have to give about driving on a forum that'll make an overall difference to everyone at various tracks with different setups/lines/classes etc?
You could literally chalk an entire line around a track that is a perfect drive and tell me to hit it in a certain time....but if my setup is off, I'll never be able to do it. The absolute best drivers could probably make the lap time you want with an incorrect setup....but I'll bet they weren't following the line you gave them?
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I think the point of the post is to not focus as much time on things that have proven to have little affect. Take time to learn to drive which in his experience has the most effect. It sounds like people stress over a clutch when it likely wont gain them the 2 seconds they are looking for. People also use carb/clutch/gear etc as an excuse to be slow. Questions to ask would be specific to each drivers issues. The post isnt to answer all of everyones questions, its just to change focus/priorites.
 
fatboy1dh said:
Mac,

I dont think you are seeing Gary's point. Let me give you an example:

Someone shows up to the track. They run a 32 second lap (imaginary here). They make some clutch changes, carb changes, gear change. Get down to a 31.7. Gary then gets in their kart (assuming he weighs the same or heavier) and runs a 31.0. That is what he is saying. There is more time in driving properly than there is in tuning an engine and/or clutch.

And before you say this would never happen, I have seen it with my own eyes multiple times from this Gary10 fella himself.
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Appreciate the feedback and Gary there's no disrespect at all coming your way when I respond.
I totally agree that drivers definitely have their talents here and there and can make a slow kart fast.
Gary, please forgive me if I'm wrong here but it was my thinking that your original post on here was aimed at generally speaking "why don't others ask about driving technique here on Bob's." If I'm wrong I apologize completely but that's what I was mainly responding to. It's hard to ask about driving on a forum about a track and get good feedback whereas the real help would be with someone AT the track.
My main approach to your post was to simply say, if others can at least get on an equal ground as everyone else mechanically, then focusing on driving technique can be better prioritized.
I think coaches are the best thing when it comes to getting better and honestly WISH there were some out here in KC that could help me out on this new track lol
 
Karts wear out, they break. But especially for a kid developing good racecraft and skills I think is a much more enduring and worthwhile thing to focus on.
 
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Mac,
You and I are not talking about the same driving issues. I believe we are mostly in agreement if we were. Drivers that are more than a half a second off the pace are having issues with things like apexing too early or entering too fast and on the gas too late etc. Those are the most common issues I see with inexperienced drivers.
 
gary10 said:
Mac,
You and I are not talking about the same driving issues. I believe we are mostly in agreement if we were. Drivers that are more than a half a second off the pace are having issues with things like apexing too early or entering too fast and on the gas too late etc. Those are the most common issues I see with inexperienced drivers.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaabsolutely agree.
I back down lol
 
Paul, as you mentioned in “chopping off a corner” or turning in early as I call it is likely the single most common problem even “good” drivers still do. They just manage to do it while not scrubbing as much speed as others. Pride is often an issue when trying to give anyone advice. Certainly have the respect, results or reputation helps to validate your point. Many children won’t listen to their parent that was a successful racer in their own right but they’ll listen to me because they’ve actually watched me race. Kids also do want to be told all day long by their parent how to behave and then take more orders at the track where they’re supposed to be having fun. It’s a fine line but I promise it will help more than changing some damn clutch springs.
 
gary10 said:
Paul, as you mentioned in “chopping off a corner” or turning in early as I call it is likely the single most common problem even “good” drivers still do. They just manage to do it while not scrubbing as much speed as others. Pride is often an issue when trying to give anyone advice. Certainly have the respect, results or reputation helps to validate your point. Many children won’t listen to their parent that was a successful racer in their own right but they’ll listen to me because they’ve actually watched me race. Kids also do want to be told all day long by their parent how to behave and then take more orders at the track where they’re supposed to be having fun. It’s a fine line but I promise it will help more than changing some damn clutch springs.
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LOL Gary, out of courtesy and figuring i'd screw up the thread I deleted my stuff.

Thank you for the reply.

sorry dumb me again and thanks for the reply

edit Gary: I LOL like what I write and though I delete it from here being I like my stuff I also save to read later.

i'm going to stay out and listen and learn from others. Great to hear you on here again.
You and Noah are two of my sprint hero's and very great at your craft. ... :)
 
I agree with what Gary is saying. We see it (and hear it) all the time through our shop. Folks are constantly looking for that engine/mechanical "edge," or that "magic bullet" that will pick them up 1/2 second. With the 206 package, it's just not there. Sure we tune, but so does most everyone else. We can scale and laser align a chassis, but so does everyone else. What separates the front runners from most of the back markers is not the engine, clutch, or even chassis set-up, it's experience.
Unfortunately, you cannot as easily "buy" experience and it doesn't happen overnight, so it doesn't get asked about much on here.
Experienced drivers can pull a taller gear, scrub less rpm, make a set of tires go longer into a run before falling off....it's what they're good at. Setting someone with lesser experience in Gary's personal kart still won't create the same lap times he can run.

This is not a new revelation, however. It's been this way as long as I've been around karting (and racing in general), which is all my life.

Specifically to the LO206, the more "spec" anything that you have, the more important the driver will become.
If you spec the engine; then tires, chassis, and driver all gain importance.
If you spec the engine and tires; then chassis and driver gain importance.
If you spec then engine, tires, and chassis; then the driver gains importance.
The one variable that you can't spec - is the driver, yet his/her importance is part of EVERY equation.


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🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
31 years of service to the karting industry
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
 
Lots of good things here. This may be unpopular, but it is my own personal experience. If anyone is not a believer, I have a very easy test for you to do.

I think all guys who have dyno'd 206s would agree that the new spark plug is a power gainer over the old (reportedly between 0.2-0.3hp). We, as engine "builders", would kill for that extra 0.3hp (let alone for only $5). So, do an on-track back to back. Send your driver out with the old plug. Then send him out with the new plug. Then send him back out with the old plug again. I think you will find that the middle run was not magically a few tenths faster than the previous runs. In fact, I bet you will find the runs overlap with a few faster laps and a few slower laps in each run.

I'm just trying to prove that even a huge power gain like 0.3hp (in a spec 8hp engine class) will not give you the magic "half second" you are looking for.
 
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