Tillotson 212RS vs Briggs 206?

A rare time I disagree with you.. I do not believe Kart racing is benefited by yet another platform. By the way is this Tilly sealed?
I DEFINITELY am not saying that we need another engine or that it will benefit karting.
Is the door open for another manufacturer? Absolutely! Briggs hasn't been able to keep up with demand for a few years now (for a variety of reasons.)
For several years now, the imports have threatened to come in and take the market with an engine at half the cost of the 206. Doesn't look like they were able to do that, now does it? I don't understand another engine at the same price point. Had they come in under $500, maybe it would look more like a tidal wave to me, but at roughly the same price as the 206 and an engine that still has some proving to do, I don't see this 212RS gaining much traction OTHER THAN if they can produce it while Briggs struggles.
 
From what I've heard, Steve, there is a great disparity between individual 212RS engines out of the box. Enough that guys have felt the difference on the track (seat of the pants.)
Brian
It would be a big challenge for any engine manufacturer to have engine to engine parity to within 1/10 HP. The accuracy with all that’s involved with regards to material quality, precision dimensions, design and manufacturing would certainly drive up the cost considerably. I doubt if any manufacturer uses Shainin or Taguchi in the design or manufacturing process.
 
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I will share the 212 but I don’t have anything on the 206. I was told by the engineer from tillotson that the consistency from one to the other is good.
 
As for cost, I am not happy either. However when one considers the inflation of karting parts over the last year I just shake my head.
 
I will share the 212 but I don’t have anything on the 206. I was told by the engineer from tillotson that the consistency from one to the other is good.
Dyno, the “good” answer would be expected. The engine builders will be the real proof after they have tested 50 + engines.
In the 30 years of building engines the best engine platform for power parity was the little Honda 120 UT3 engine. Over a 3 year period we built over 850 of these engines for quarter midgets and the HP variation was within .25 HP. One of the worst engines we seen was .75 HP variation engine to engine.
 
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Brian
It would be a big challenge for any engine manufacturer to have engine to engine parity to within 1/10 HP. The accuracy with all that’s involved with regards to material quality, precision dimensions, design and manufacturing would certainly drive up the cost considerably. I doubt if any manufacturer uses Shainin or Taguchi in the design or manufacturing process.
With all respect, Steve, 1/10 is not great disparity. For most of us, that's as accurate as you're going to be able to look at dyno numbers at all, and hand building engines to blueprinted specs often aren't that equal. Again, it's early in the roll-out of the engine, but I'm hearing feedback that they are not very equal (seat of the pants) from one 212RS engine to the next. I know of no one that has dyno'd 50 of them yet. They are racing them currently in Florida (Orlando and possibly elsewhere.) Maybe some folks from down there (or others who are actually racing them alongside other 212RSs) can chime in with their personal experience.
 
Where I think the key to its success is going to be the consistency of the center line. The harbor freight 212 is all over the place and it shows on the Dyno. If Tillotson can get control of quality control I think the engine will work for those who want a sealed engine. If not it will just be another 212 with a seal on it. The engine has 3 coils available. 6000,6500,7000.
 
Where I think the key to its success is going to be the consistency of the center line. The harbor freight 212 is all over the place and it shows on the Dyno. If Tillotson can get control of quality control I think the engine will work for those who want a sealed engine. If not it will just be another 212 with a seal on it. The engine has 3 coils available. 6000,6500,7000.
Does Tillotson own the tooling for this engine? Does Tillotson have their own quality engineers stationed at the manufacturing site making sure they meet prints and requirements? Who owns and controls the engineering drawings and technical specifications for this engine ? If the answer is China and not Tillotson then this engine will probably be the same as what you’ve already seen over the years in the world of clones.
 
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When I spoke with the engineer for this engine he told me tillotson has total controll. Can’t tell ya anymore than that. Does that mean Tillotson controls the plant in China? I don’t know the answer to that either.
 
Here are the HP numbers out of the box with the 6000 rpm coil. I did no changes to increase HP. It was out of box, on the Dyno, oil in and heat cycled. Then I threw the water at it!!!! Low correction factor due to heating the garage.
3980 rpm- 9.47 HP
4810 rpm- 10.95 HP
5470 rpm- 11.88 HP
5750 rpm- 11.90 HP
5870 rpm- 11.54 HP
5920 rpm- 11.02 HP

Dyno calibrated to an out of the box 212 making 6.9 HP @ 3600 rpm that I use as a calibration tool.
 
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Here are the HP numbers out of the box with the 6000 rpm coil. I did no changes to increase HP. It was out of box, on the Dyno, oil in and heat cycled. Then I threw the water at it!!!! Low correction factor due to heating the garage.
3980 rpm- 9.47 HP
4810 rpm- 10.95 HP
5470 rpm- 11.88 HP
5750 rpm- 11.90 HP
5870 rpm- 11.54 HP
5920 rpm- 11.02 HP

Dyno calibrated to an out of the box 212 making that I use as a calibration tool.
Your using a water brake dyno ?
 
I will say there is room for improvement as I found the intake gasket acting as a restrictor plate. AKRA will permit gasket matching to that area.
 
Here are the HP numbers out of the box with the 6000 rpm coil. I did no changes to increase HP. It was out of box, on the Dyno, oil in and heat cycled. Then I threw the water at it!!!! Low correction factor due to heating the garage.
3980 rpm- 9.47 HP
4810 rpm- 10.95 HP
5470 rpm- 11.88 HP
5750 rpm- 11.90 HP
5870 rpm- 11.54 HP
5920 rpm- 11.02 HP

Dyno calibrated to an out of the box 212 making 6.9 HP @ 3600 rpm that I use as a calibration tool.
Thanks for the info, however, w/o seeing the comparative numbers of a 206 from your dyno, it doesn't provide much insight; Do you have a set of dyno numbers from your dyno we can compare to?
 
I recall claims being made that a 206 makes approximately 9.9 HP or so.
If that is the case, the 212RS should certainly have huge advantage if they're run in the same class.
 
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