Stager bind / loosen a push tight condition, I feel is a timeing thing, cross center off ?
tire temp input continued here, so to not hyjack a thread
- Thread starter paulkish
- Start date
Stager bind / loosen a push tight condition, I feel is a timeing thing, cross center off ?
Mr South 59
New member
Donn. Your info of Kenny Reese's super modified that Tim Richmond tested is a little off. It was actuilly a 4 wheeled car. 3 wheels on the right side and one wheel on the LR. The RF was in the normal location and it had 2 RR's. One right in front of the other. Tim actuilly sat on the right side between the motor/tranny and the right side tires. If the front RR blew it would have taken Tim's arm off. It was a piece of work. The right side header actuilly went around the front of the motor and exited on the left side of the motor.
Mr South 59
New member
What I think a lot of you are missing with LTO. Static weight in one thing, dynamic weight is another. FYI. The kart gets heavier in the corner. The LR does not get lighter with the added G forces. The added G force weight is what we need to direct. We do not need to direct static weight on the track. All the tires only get heavier on the track.
When was the last time you went into the corner and you saw the guy in front of you lift the LR off the ground??? LOL. When was the last time you saw the LR tire even unload. The only time I ever see that is when I am lapping a kart, that is out to lunch, the 3 or 4 time in a 10 lap heat. LOL We do not lift the LF.
When was the last time you went into the corner and you saw the guy in front of you lift the LR off the ground??? LOL. When was the last time you saw the LR tire even unload. The only time I ever see that is when I am lapping a kart, that is out to lunch, the 3 or 4 time in a 10 lap heat. LOL We do not lift the LF.
Mr South 59
New member
Actuilly is was 1979.
paulkish
old fart
Help !
I'm still having a hard time understanding 'balanced'. Let's say all four tires come in after a race all heated in the exact same way. My logic tells me that during a circuit around the track each tire in total was used the same amount as every other tire. I don't have a problem seeing each tire was worked equally.
I do have a problem saying it indicates things are good and working well.
If each tire had the same job to do for you at every place around the track, then I'd say ok temps all the same is good and balanced. But I see each tire doing a different job going around the track. I don't see all jobs which need done out on the track requiring the same effort. If we had equal left and right turns, then I could see it being good for the LF and RF to come in exactly the same, and the LR and RR to come in exactly the same. But even with equal left and right turns, I don't see where heating front to back being the same would mean things are good.
I can see it meaning things are close, but not necessarily correct or the best they can be. It just doesn't set right with me that getting identical temps all around is an indication of the ultimate usage.
If the RF does a different job then the LR, why would we shoot for equal temps?
If a RF is to hot and it's primary function is to turn the front, then it can't run cooler unless it shares turning effort with another tire or tires. Share turning effort with the LF and it will become cooler. ... maybe I'm now answering my own question as I write... If the fronts together are too hot, then I guess if we can get some rotational effort out of the back they will run cooler. If we get the fronts to run cooler by getting additional rotation effort out of the back and the LR is too cool... then I guess you have to use the LR more when gaining additional rotational effort from the back. ... ok... maybe it's falling in place.... ?????????????????
I'm still having a hard time understanding 'balanced'. Let's say all four tires come in after a race all heated in the exact same way. My logic tells me that during a circuit around the track each tire in total was used the same amount as every other tire. I don't have a problem seeing each tire was worked equally.
I do have a problem saying it indicates things are good and working well.
If each tire had the same job to do for you at every place around the track, then I'd say ok temps all the same is good and balanced. But I see each tire doing a different job going around the track. I don't see all jobs which need done out on the track requiring the same effort. If we had equal left and right turns, then I could see it being good for the LF and RF to come in exactly the same, and the LR and RR to come in exactly the same. But even with equal left and right turns, I don't see where heating front to back being the same would mean things are good.
I can see it meaning things are close, but not necessarily correct or the best they can be. It just doesn't set right with me that getting identical temps all around is an indication of the ultimate usage.
If the RF does a different job then the LR, why would we shoot for equal temps?
If a RF is to hot and it's primary function is to turn the front, then it can't run cooler unless it shares turning effort with another tire or tires. Share turning effort with the LF and it will become cooler. ... maybe I'm now answering my own question as I write... If the fronts together are too hot, then I guess if we can get some rotational effort out of the back they will run cooler. If we get the fronts to run cooler by getting additional rotation effort out of the back and the LR is too cool... then I guess you have to use the LR more when gaining additional rotational effort from the back. ... ok... maybe it's falling in place.... ?????????????????
paulkish
old fart
paulkish
old fart
copy post from other thread here:
I understood Andrew and you said it perfectly.
I see the confusion. I am not preaching unloading the LR.
The only unloading of the LR I ever think about is in terms of providing weight to the RR so the RR can out accelerate the LR. I now know the confusion comes from my NOT ever considering the over all increase in weight because of an increase in g's. Thank you.
If I include grabbing additional weight via an increase in g's, I can see where the additional weight from an increase in g's >alone<, could be sufficient to cause the RR to rotate 'forward' around the LR.
thanks
paul
Thank you, you fixed a major flaw in how I see it and presented it, because I did not ever consider weight gain because of g's.
I understood Andrew and you said it perfectly.
I see the confusion. I am not preaching unloading the LR.
The only unloading of the LR I ever think about is in terms of providing weight to the RR so the RR can out accelerate the LR. I now know the confusion comes from my NOT ever considering the over all increase in weight because of an increase in g's. Thank you.
If I include grabbing additional weight via an increase in g's, I can see where the additional weight from an increase in g's >alone<, could be sufficient to cause the RR to rotate 'forward' around the LR.
thanks
paul
Thank you, you fixed a major flaw in how I see it and presented it, because I did not ever consider weight gain because of g's.
Mr South 59
New member
Nice pics Paul. I haven't seen that thing in years but I remember it like the back of my hand. Being a Florida boy also, I has the pleasure of meeting Tim on several occasions. I built T G Shepard's house when he was sponsoring Tim. When we had the house warming party T G' band played and Tim was there giving out Folgers hats and shirts. The are my most prized possessions in my collection. Also got to meet Tim's girlfriends family. They were the first one to start subbing out the memrobellia haulers from the cup teams. That guy has an unbelievable private collection just outside of Ocala in Citra. I was at his place a few years ago. It is awesome. He has more Tim stuff than you can imagine.
Mr South 59
New member
I have been trying to figure out a way to put it into words but that PM last week made it click on paper.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
you have to make an obvious deduction. If the kart felt like it was on rails, and you smoked the competition, something was right. I'm going to go with the theory that evenly heated tires are good. And I'm going to stay with that theory until somebody, or some thing, proves me wrong.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
The proof of any theory is that it can predict the data.
Fact always displaces theory.
Once the data, predicted by the theory, becomes fact, there is no more need of a theory.
paulkish
old fart
Hi Al, knowing your difficulty seeing, I split up my response into many paragraphs hoping it would make for easier reading.
-------------------------------
"If the kart felt like it was on rails, and you smoked the competition, something was right. I'm going to go with the theory that evenly heated tires are good."
Al I agree with you, "that evenly heated tires are good". I'll even go as far as saying in most cases sprint racing and many cases LTO racing it is good. But I do not think evenly heated tires is always or even necessarily an indicator, tires are being used in the best way. I say that because each tire on a LTO and the front and rear tires on a sprint, do different jobs on their trip around the track.
In your previous post on here it appears to me you ignored the fact that Andrew did not have all tires evenly heated. He had three evenly heated but the fourth the LF was hotter. I'm saying you had or have a hard time accepting it was on rails because of the LF being heated more.
I'm saying that because in your previous post you said, "The fact that all 4 tires are the same temp, or close, would indicate to me that all the tires are performing the same amount of work.".
Al, it was not 'fact' the tires had the same temp.
I think you included the word close in your previous post, to support your 'feeling' on the matter, over the 'facts' stated by Andrew. Later I think if I read what Andrew said correctly, he included to us his feelings the increased temperature at the LF was significant.
Al, it's tough for me the same as it is for you to change a thought process and include data that may not support a theory. Actually I don't think there is any theory at all involved here. Andrew stated as fact three tires were heated the same and the LF was warmer. Assuming the facts are correct I will do my best to make the theory fit the facts.
I think it would help in this instance if you would allow yourself to alter your theory, to fit the facts Andrew presented. Though you say theory needs altered to fit the facts, in this case you seem to be having a hard time altering your theory.
-------------------------------
"If the kart felt like it was on rails, and you smoked the competition, something was right. I'm going to go with the theory that evenly heated tires are good."
Al I agree with you, "that evenly heated tires are good". I'll even go as far as saying in most cases sprint racing and many cases LTO racing it is good. But I do not think evenly heated tires is always or even necessarily an indicator, tires are being used in the best way. I say that because each tire on a LTO and the front and rear tires on a sprint, do different jobs on their trip around the track.
In your previous post on here it appears to me you ignored the fact that Andrew did not have all tires evenly heated. He had three evenly heated but the fourth the LF was hotter. I'm saying you had or have a hard time accepting it was on rails because of the LF being heated more.
I'm saying that because in your previous post you said, "The fact that all 4 tires are the same temp, or close, would indicate to me that all the tires are performing the same amount of work.".
Al, it was not 'fact' the tires had the same temp.
I think you included the word close in your previous post, to support your 'feeling' on the matter, over the 'facts' stated by Andrew. Later I think if I read what Andrew said correctly, he included to us his feelings the increased temperature at the LF was significant.
Al, it's tough for me the same as it is for you to change a thought process and include data that may not support a theory. Actually I don't think there is any theory at all involved here. Andrew stated as fact three tires were heated the same and the LF was warmer. Assuming the facts are correct I will do my best to make the theory fit the facts.
I think it would help in this instance if you would allow yourself to alter your theory, to fit the facts Andrew presented. Though you say theory needs altered to fit the facts, in this case you seem to be having a hard time altering your theory.
paulkish
old fart
My cold after a month and a half seems to be finally ending it's been a tough road. It's horrible what the flu or cold can do to you.
anyway moving on with my fun ...
This thread has lead to provoking me to get the gumption to start another battle of, "It's me against the whole racing world", comment. I'm doing it for the sake of discussion, it's fun to think about, not to say anyone in particular in the racing world is wrong and everyone except me, see's it wrong. Frankly everyone who races LTO is wrong, except me, about what there doing to be the fastest they can be. ...
I'm limited on smiley faces so grab on to one now because you'll need it later for reference and to not forget they are a part of this whole post.
First off if your goal to be fast is to have a balanced setup, your goal is to obtain a setup which is very likely not the fastest setup. I'll ask now what defines a balanced setup? I think your answers will come from just a few areas. The areas I see will be the seat of your pants, are you racing something which is neither loose or pushing, is what your racing neither tight nor too free, can you turn at will anyplace on the track and what this is all about from the title of this thread, are your tires evenly heated.
Here's my point. I'll assume having tires evenly heated is a good thing and is fast. But that instantly puts this thought in my mind, if it's good then everyone is shooting for the same thing of evenly heated tires. And it logically follows for me that who ever gets closest to having evenly heated tires will be the fastest. End of story if balance relates to tire temps, then get your tire temps the same and you will be as fast as you can be. period
Either the last sentence is cut and dry fact and the way it is or your mind has to start hedging the value of even tire temps, by saying yes they can be evenly heated but this or that factor also has to be taken into consideration. What is it then? Are even tire temps a goal or are they only an indicator of weather or not your achieving another goal ?
anyway moving on with my fun ...
This thread has lead to provoking me to get the gumption to start another battle of, "It's me against the whole racing world", comment. I'm doing it for the sake of discussion, it's fun to think about, not to say anyone in particular in the racing world is wrong and everyone except me, see's it wrong. Frankly everyone who races LTO is wrong, except me, about what there doing to be the fastest they can be. ...
I'm limited on smiley faces so grab on to one now because you'll need it later for reference and to not forget they are a part of this whole post.
First off if your goal to be fast is to have a balanced setup, your goal is to obtain a setup which is very likely not the fastest setup. I'll ask now what defines a balanced setup? I think your answers will come from just a few areas. The areas I see will be the seat of your pants, are you racing something which is neither loose or pushing, is what your racing neither tight nor too free, can you turn at will anyplace on the track and what this is all about from the title of this thread, are your tires evenly heated.
Here's my point. I'll assume having tires evenly heated is a good thing and is fast. But that instantly puts this thought in my mind, if it's good then everyone is shooting for the same thing of evenly heated tires. And it logically follows for me that who ever gets closest to having evenly heated tires will be the fastest. End of story if balance relates to tire temps, then get your tire temps the same and you will be as fast as you can be. period
Either the last sentence is cut and dry fact and the way it is or your mind has to start hedging the value of even tire temps, by saying yes they can be evenly heated but this or that factor also has to be taken into consideration. What is it then? Are even tire temps a goal or are they only an indicator of weather or not your achieving another goal ?
Mr South 59
New member
Yes. They both would be correct. The are both the same goal. But there is still the "this and that" you will need to gain experiance with to understand what the tire temps are telling you.
You see. This thread started out about my equal tire temps in the Pro Truck after a 50 lap feature. That is what you want. That is the goal. With that being said there is a lot of this and that, that goes along with that. For one, the Pro truck. A 2900# suspended metric chassis with 6" ride height 57% left. Second would be 50 laps. And third, it was a feature. All that tells you a lot. The main thing I see is 50 of "racing". That means heat saturation in the tires.
Paul. I spend a lot of time with a pyrometer memory box in my hand at the track. If we do a mock up qualifying run I wont even probe the tires. Not enough laps to get any heat at all. If we go out and do a 12 lap run I will probe the tires and have to decipher what the tires are telling me. Most of the time the right sides are hotter than the lefts by 18-30* depending on track tempeture for a 12 lap run. This is where the "this and that" comes in again. You see, we haven't run enough laps yet to get heat saturation. Only 12 laps. So the temps haven't come up all the way. I dont have equal tire temps yet but I know the truck is on rail. The box says the front to rear rear +3, rights are a +23, and the cross is +3. LF 161 RF 173 LR 163 RR172
Experience tells me it takes about 25-30 laps to get full heat saturation on the lefts sides and only about 20 laps for the right sides. And normally the LF is the last one to fully heat saturated because of all the caster. So we plan for the left sides to catch up to the right side temps. So after all the tires get heat saturated they come up to the same temps and they are all doing equal amount of work around a lap on the track. That is the ultimate goal.
That brings men to karts. And why I say that it is not worth the time to probe kart tires. And why I rarely do it. It is because you will normally never heat saturate a kart tire at the track. The karts are to light and the speeds are the slow and the track surface is not hot enough to heat saturate a tire in a normal practice. Not even close. It would take a good 20-30 laps to heat saturate a set of tires to obtain the equal tire temp. You can't get a true reading in 10-15 laps on a kart and have repeatable results. It is not worth the time.
Like I said. I rarely do karts. A lot of you know I used to own Martin Co Kartway. It is an asphalt 1/6 mile banked oval. Back when we were running dirt nationals real heavy we would balance our karts at my track. We would do 100's of testing laps a day. Long consistant laps run and lots of tire temps. Once we got the kart balanced we would change left or rear percentages for that driver EVER!!! We would only change cross, frontend geometry, and tires tires tires.
Remember. When you are measuring tire temps you need to measure the temp at the cord not just in the rubber. If you are doing kart tires and do not have an adjustable depth probe you are not getting true temps. If you trying to do it with the standard probe you will flatten you tires going to deep.
You see. This thread started out about my equal tire temps in the Pro Truck after a 50 lap feature. That is what you want. That is the goal. With that being said there is a lot of this and that, that goes along with that. For one, the Pro truck. A 2900# suspended metric chassis with 6" ride height 57% left. Second would be 50 laps. And third, it was a feature. All that tells you a lot. The main thing I see is 50 of "racing". That means heat saturation in the tires.
Paul. I spend a lot of time with a pyrometer memory box in my hand at the track. If we do a mock up qualifying run I wont even probe the tires. Not enough laps to get any heat at all. If we go out and do a 12 lap run I will probe the tires and have to decipher what the tires are telling me. Most of the time the right sides are hotter than the lefts by 18-30* depending on track tempeture for a 12 lap run. This is where the "this and that" comes in again. You see, we haven't run enough laps yet to get heat saturation. Only 12 laps. So the temps haven't come up all the way. I dont have equal tire temps yet but I know the truck is on rail. The box says the front to rear rear +3, rights are a +23, and the cross is +3. LF 161 RF 173 LR 163 RR172
Experience tells me it takes about 25-30 laps to get full heat saturation on the lefts sides and only about 20 laps for the right sides. And normally the LF is the last one to fully heat saturated because of all the caster. So we plan for the left sides to catch up to the right side temps. So after all the tires get heat saturated they come up to the same temps and they are all doing equal amount of work around a lap on the track. That is the ultimate goal.
That brings men to karts. And why I say that it is not worth the time to probe kart tires. And why I rarely do it. It is because you will normally never heat saturate a kart tire at the track. The karts are to light and the speeds are the slow and the track surface is not hot enough to heat saturate a tire in a normal practice. Not even close. It would take a good 20-30 laps to heat saturate a set of tires to obtain the equal tire temp. You can't get a true reading in 10-15 laps on a kart and have repeatable results. It is not worth the time.
Like I said. I rarely do karts. A lot of you know I used to own Martin Co Kartway. It is an asphalt 1/6 mile banked oval. Back when we were running dirt nationals real heavy we would balance our karts at my track. We would do 100's of testing laps a day. Long consistant laps run and lots of tire temps. Once we got the kart balanced we would change left or rear percentages for that driver EVER!!! We would only change cross, frontend geometry, and tires tires tires.
Remember. When you are measuring tire temps you need to measure the temp at the cord not just in the rubber. If you are doing kart tires and do not have an adjustable depth probe you are not getting true temps. If you trying to do it with the standard probe you will flatten you tires going to deep.
paulkish
old fart
Does heat cause the tire to work or does the working tire cause heat?
I'm going to guess they go hand in hand. I'm guessing you need to use experience to determine if what your reading, based on the amount of time the cars been on the track, is from physical interaction of the tire with the track or heat radiated across the tire.
Thank you Andrew, I'm beginning to see the heating of the tires, being as complex as dynamic weight flowing around an operating chassis.
I'm going to guess they go hand in hand. I'm guessing you need to use experience to determine if what your reading, based on the amount of time the cars been on the track, is from physical interaction of the tire with the track or heat radiated across the tire.
Thank you Andrew, I'm beginning to see the heating of the tires, being as complex as dynamic weight flowing around an operating chassis.
Mr South 59
New member
Paul. I just reread what I wrote last night and where I said that at my track we would get our karts balanced. I meant to say, once we get the kart balanced we will "Never" change the left or rear for that driver EVER.
Yah. Knowing what the temps are telling you does take a lot of experiance. But it is the best indicator of how the tire are interacting with the track. I have about 8 dynamic ride height and travel indicators on our vehicals. When our truck or late model comes off the track and I do the tire temps and look at all of my indicators I really don't even need hardly any driver feedback. The car and tires are "talking" to me enough to tell me what the chassis is doing.
The vehicals talk to me so much that my team has dubbed me "The Chassis Whisperer".
Yah. Knowing what the temps are telling you does take a lot of experiance. But it is the best indicator of how the tire are interacting with the track. I have about 8 dynamic ride height and travel indicators on our vehicals. When our truck or late model comes off the track and I do the tire temps and look at all of my indicators I really don't even need hardly any driver feedback. The car and tires are "talking" to me enough to tell me what the chassis is doing.
The vehicals talk to me so much that my team has dubbed me "The Chassis Whisperer".