Tire temp readings

XXX#40

TRUMP 2020
If one tire is hotter than the others, it's not setup correctly.
So if you use your hand or a temp gun to find this out, you're acquiring the tire temp to make the correct changes aren't you.
Then tire temps do have a purpose.
I dont use my hand to tell if one is hotter, I dont care, I care how the tire looks, lap times and watching engine temps during a run
 

Maxxslack

Member
You cant honestly believe that had you been taking diligent tire data this whole time, along with all of the other more prevalent data. That there is no possible way you could have ever went faster.....

Any data that can be captured has value.

It is that simple.
 

XXX#40

TRUMP 2020
You cant honestly believe that had you been taking diligent tire data this whole time, along with all of the other more prevalent data. That there is no possible way you could have ever went faster.....

Any data that can be captured has value.

It is that simple.
Taking useless data is useless data( tire temp) and a waste of time that could be used on things that really make you faster, but go ahead and waste your time if you want.
 

msquared

Member
I 100% disagree that tire temps on dirt are useless. Case in point, at a VDKA race I was working with Jared Jackson and Josh Philpott, two totally different chassis and two totally different ways of tire prep. Changes were made based on tire temps and they were .002 difference in time. And by the way they were 1st and 2nd and Jared Jackson won the race!

NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER USE AN IR GUN!!! ALWAYS USE A PYROMETER!!!

Here is where I believe people get really lost. They make way too many adjustment to the kart instead of taking one thing at a time. Take the temps, and always, always try to take the temps at as close to the same time as the kart comes off the track as possible. This is very important. The first two things to look at are does the tires have the correct air pressure and how does your cambers look. Make those adjustments. Once you have these two things correct it mostly boils down to adjusting cross and maybe moving some lead around.

As long as your setup (percentages and tire prep) is pretty neutral, tire temps is mostly about getting your air pressures correct and matching your cambers to the track. Then adjusting cross or moving a little lead, it is pretty much that simple.

Don't want to fool with tire temps, look at your air pressure gains after a run and use tire chalk on the front tires. There should be about 1.5" of chalk left on the outside of the RF and about 1/2" left on the inside of the LF. For air pressure gain, try adding a little more air to the tire(s) that gained the most air. If that tire continues to build more pressure then look at why it is working too hard.

Here is a real tire temp example:

LF 79 79 78 RF 90 87 83

LR 91 91 88 RR 93 89 86

Notes:
The driver indicated that the kart was pushing a little. The air pressure and tire softness was in the ballpark. The engine RPM's were down a little most likely due to the push.

Lets look at the averages:
LF 79 RF 87

LR 90 RR 89

Front - 83
Rear - 90
RS - 88
LS - 84
Cross - 88
Jacking - 84

Rear vs Front +7 Ideally +10
RS vs LS +4 Ideally +10
Balance 7 - 7 = 3 Ideally 0
Cross vs Jacking 88 - 84 = 4 Ideally 0

The LF is pretty close camber wise. It has a little too much LS and rear weight. The RF has a little too much camber because the splits are not equal 90 - 87 = 3 and 87 - 83 = 4

The kart is sitting on the LR a little too much. I would like to see the RF/LR the same temp. So the fix is to move a piece of lead from the leftside of the seat to the right front corner of the seat. This will pull a little left out and add some nose weight mostly to the RF where more grip is needed. I am going to pull 2% cross out and 1/4 degree of RF camber, this too will add some grip to the RF.

The result was the kart was very, very fast and the tire temps backed it up. The driver complained the kart was too free, but he hated a free kart. It was stuck and it was fast! If you datalog then you can overlay your laps. Pay particular attention to the G-Force readings.

My point is do things in small steps using tire temps. Once you have it down it becomes easy. ALL DATA HAS VALUE. It is just a matter of how you interpret it and use it.

Mike
 

Outrider

Member
NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER USE AN IR GUN!!! ALWAYS USE A PYROMETER!!!

Mike
+10!!! Of the few who took tire temps at the tracks I ran, I was the only one who used a needle probe type tire pyrometer. I suppose I was mean spirited - I never told them to switch, figuring that gave me an edge. Plugging the temps into the equations as you did above gave me a lot of tips on what direction(s) I needed to take my adjustments, especially with refining my camber adjustments when all else was close.
 

krtrcn

Member
Its obvious after reading all the replies, some people know everything or just unwilling to exceptthe fact that tire temps in all levels of racing, like it or not.
 

Chipg56

Member
We used an ir gun for years and find the information valuable. We have mostly only raced pavement but I would suspect that it would work with hard high grip dirt tracks as well. The info is really only usable when you are really close on set up and need to tweek. For instance say if you are good but just have a slight push. Now most of dirt boys would just look to change your tires. On asphalt we would more likely look to setup, particularly camber. But either excessive or insufficient camber can and will cause a push and tire temps can tell you which way to go. Now are tire temps the best way to evaluate what is going on with your kart? No, no and if you expect it to put you from last place to winner in your first year or two you will be dissapointed but after lots of use you will find the information valuable under most circumstances.
 
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Here's an example of what you want to SAVE. The red cells are the only part of the spreadsheet that excepts data. After you enter all 12 cells with camps, the blue cells are all calculations of the various things you would be interested in. There is no ideal. When you're going really fast, when the card is handling really good, with those conditions at that race, those temps would be something to shoot for at the next race. There's no ideal temps, there are just indications of why you're going fast. Does that make sense? This spreadsheet is just one of about 40 spreadsheets in "nine sheets" a free collection of karting utilities in Excel format.
tire temps.jpg
 
Taking useless data is useless data( tire temp) and a waste of time that could be used on things that really make you faster, but go ahead and waste your time if you want.
Where does your tire pressure gain come from ? Seriously you cant build air if you dont build heat ...and on that note the air pressure will drop at the same rate as tire temp drops if you use needle to check temps ...I respectively disagree that taking tire temp is useless info
 

XXX#40

TRUMP 2020
Where does your tire pressure gain come from ? Seriously you cant build air if you dont build heat ...and on that note the air pressure will drop at the same rate as tire temp drops if you use needle to check temps ...I respectively disagree that taking tire temp is useless info
Like I said, go ahead and waste your time if you want, been there, not going back.
Next time you go to a big money race pay attention to the top teams, non will be taking tire temps, they are like individual wheel weights, they are what they are, an overall run of lap times are more important, looking at the finish of a tire when it comes off the track will tell you which one is working hardest
 
Any (consistent) data you collect can and will be useful, it's a matter of being able to determine how it relates to general kart logic as well as how it relates to other data you are collecting. You have to know how to interpret and use the information once you have it. That being said, if your tire program or your setup is way off base to begin with or you don't yet understand the physics of how a go kart operates, taking tire temps isn't going to magically land you in the winner's circle. Temps come into play *more* so when you start fine tuning your setup after you've already found a solid baseline for your program and driver. I definitely believe that monitoring tire temperatures CONSISTENTLY can be a useful AID in determining how the corners of the kart are working together. However, you also have to keep in mind that there are many factors that can contribute to changing tire temps, especially in dirt racing since we cut, surface, stagger, roll, prep, etc. Thickness, surface type, compound, sidewall height/stiffness, prep type/amount, etc. all have an affect on when/how a tire heats up. Generally: a tire that's doing more work will be hotter because it's going through more manipulation and seeing more friction on track. Just like in Mike's example where the LR was the hottest, that directly correlated with the information he got from his driver (a push). This suggests that for some reason the LR is in the track too much. That example alone should show you that tire temp data can in fact be useful when used right. Physics is Physics. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Taking the temps as soon as you are able to and keeping the amount of time between rolling off the track and hitting them with the pyrometer as close to the same as possible each time is what matters. If you do it after 5 minutes the first time but then do it after 10 the next time, your data is then "useless". Be consistent and take notes. It's all relative. Championships are not won by doing what everyone else does. Experiment and figure out a program that works for YOU and YOUR DRIVER. If you want to take temps, do it, but do it right. And like Mike said, use an actual pyrometer... Please. Also, you should definitely look into learning how to read the surface of the tire after coming off the track, that will tell you *almost* everything you need to know as far as how the kart/tires are interacting with the track surface.

When it comes to karting, tires are like the whole entire user manual of how to go fast, but written in a new language. Learn the language and then reference the manual frequently, it won't lead you wrong.
 

XXX#40

TRUMP 2020
Any (consistent) data you collect can and will be useful, it's a matter of being able to determine how it relates to general kart logic as well as how it relates to other data you are collecting. You have to know how to interpret and use the information once you have it. That being said, if your tire program or your setup is way off base to begin with or you don't yet understand the physics of how a go kart operates, taking tire temps isn't going to magically land you in the winner's circle. Temps come into play *more* so when you start fine tuning your setup after you've already found a solid baseline for your program and driver. I definitely believe that monitoring tire temperatures CONSISTENTLY can be a useful AID in determining how the corners of the kart are working together. However, you also have to keep in mind that there are many factors that can contribute to changing tire temps, especially in dirt racing since we cut, surface, stagger, roll, prep, etc. Thickness, surface type, compound, sidewall height/stiffness, prep type/amount, etc. all have an affect on when/how a tire heats up. Generally: a tire that's doing more work will be hotter because it's going through more manipulation and seeing more friction on track. Just like in Mike's example where the LR was the hottest, that directly correlated with the information he got from his driver (a push). This suggests that for some reason the LR is in the track too much. That example alone should show you that tire temp data can in fact be useful when used right. Physics is Physics. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Taking the temps as soon as you are able to and keeping the amount of time between rolling off the track and hitting them with the pyrometer as close to the same as possible each time is what matters. If you do it after 5 minutes the first time but then do it after 10 the next time, your data is then "useless". Be consistent and take notes. It's all relative. Championships are not won by doing what everyone else does. Experiment and figure out a program that works for YOU and YOUR DRIVER. If you want to take temps, do it, but do it right. And like Mike said, use an actual pyrometer... Please. Also, you should definitely look into learning how to read the surface of the tire after coming off the track, that will tell you *almost* everything you need to know as far as how the kart/tires are interacting with the track surface.

When it comes to karting, tires are like the whole entire user manual of how to go fast, but written in a new language. Learn the language and then reference the manual frequently, it won't lead you wrong.
You do know I worked for a major chassis company for 9 years? we were also sponsored by said chassis company? we have over 200 feature wins, and won 10 track championships in 4 years.
They dont sponsor you for not knowing what youre doing, we checked tire temps 20 years ago, and its a waste of time.
And I used a longacre 4 tire, the first model of this one http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1721&prodid=7293&pagetitle=Deluxe-Memory-Tire-Pyrometer
You know what else shows a push like the example you used? a blistered RF, like I said the tire surface will tell you more.
So go write your essay somewhere else, checking tire temps on dirt is useless.
 
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You do know I worked for a major chassis company for 9 years? we were also sponsored by said chassis company? we have over 200 feature wins, and won 10 track championships in 4 years.
They dont sponsor you for not knowing what youre doing, we checked tire temps 20 years ago, and its a waste of time.
And I used a longacre 4 tire, the first model of this one http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1721&prodid=7293&pagetitle=Deluxe-Memory-Tire-Pyrometer
You know what else shows a push like the example you used? a blistered RF, like I said the tire surface will tell you more.
So go write your essay somewhere else, checking tire temps on dirt is useless.
I'm not here to try and convince anyone that you dont know what you are talking about nor am I trying to take away your accomplishments in racing but what I am going to try and convince you is that you are fortunate to have forgotten more than most will ever know about kart set up and reading the results without tools possibly....that's not an insult...I agree that at a big race the top guys aren't taking tire temps I get it but maybe that's because like you they dont have to because they can look at the tires and read them like a digital display on a pyrometer but stay with the push example...seeing the heavy graining of the front tire tells you what you need to know but if someone with less knowledge takes temps across the tire and sees alot of heat on inside edge couldn't that tell them they have to much camber and its causing the push ? Or possibly they have a 4 wheel drift and take readings across tires and find the center of the tires have the highest temp they can then figure they had to much air in tires before making chassis adjustment I'm not saying taking tire temps will make you faster but I do feel like for some it may help figure out what's going on with an ill handling kart ...think back when you were starting out did the really fast guys give you info probably not ...do you give advice at the track to help out your competitors?
 
I'm not here to try and convince anyone that you dont know what you are talking about nor am I trying to take away your accomplishments in racing but what I am going to try and convince you is that you are fortunate to have forgotten more than most will ever know about kart set up and reading the results without tools possibly....that's not an insult...I agree that at a big race the top guys aren't taking tire temps I get it but maybe that's because like you they dont have to because they can look at the tires and read them like a digital display on a pyrometer but stay with the push example...seeing the heavy graining of the front tire tells you what you need to know but if someone with less knowledge takes temps across the tire and sees alot of heat on inside edge couldn't that tell them they have to much camber and its causing the push ? Or possibly they have a 4 wheel drift and take readings across tires and find the center of the tires have the highest temp they can then figure they had to much air in tires before making chassis adjustment I'm not saying taking tire temps will make you faster but I do feel like for some it may help figure out what's going on with an ill handling kart ...think back when you were starting out did the really fast guys give you info probably not ...do you give advice at the track to help out your competitors?
Thank you. Well said. That's all I'm trying to get at. I personally know how to read a tire surface so I don't care about temps very much. But that doesn't mean they can't be useful. Was never discrediting anyone's knowledge, simply saying that just because YOU and I don't need it doesn't mean someone else might not need it. It CAN be a useful tool. Consistent data is valuable, bottom line. It's part of the learning process.
 

XXX#40

TRUMP 2020
Thank you. Well said. That's all I'm trying to get at. I personally know how to read a tire surface so I don't care about temps very much. But that doesn't mean they can't be useful. Was never discrediting anyone's knowledge, simply saying that just because YOU and I don't need it doesn't mean someone else might not need it. It CAN be a useful tool. Consistent data is valuable, bottom line. It's part of the learning process.
Except you wrote an essay doing just that, spend the time learning to read tire surfaces, reading tire temps is wasting time
 

XXX#40

TRUMP 2020
Just goes to show you can agree on some things, and not everything. :)
it is a waste of time, softer tires will read different than harder tires, then the time you take temps will always differ because of how the line forms behind the scale house, and your not allowed to touch them until they come off the scales, winner takes an extra lap with the flag, then there is the whole reason we cut tires in the first place so they heat up, stay consistent, then cool quicker.
in the time it takes to learn how to probe a tire you can learn to read a tire quickly so you can move on to the next thing, and if you run 2 classes close together, that time in between becomes more precious
 

XXX#40

TRUMP 2020
first factor is Let it go, Jamie -- we're not convincing you, and I seriously doubt that you'll convince many that are on the other side of this issue. :)
LOL if I told them I really dont care what the tire looks like, I cycle through the entire run, look and see where my fastest times are, compare to the rest of the field, and then make an adjustment if needed, I and I know you have wore a tire out over a run, but be the fastest there when it mattered:)
 
Really not sure how advocating for BOTH sides of this "argument" translates into discrediting your knowledge, Jamie. I appologize if your ego interpreted it that way. That was not the goal in any way, I'm very aware that there are people who know more than me about this topic, and there are also those who know significantly less. My only aim is to say that properly collected data has the potential to be useful, always. It's not going to "hurt" someone to check tires temps. I don't think temps are 100% useless, is it MORE beneficial to know how to read a tire though? Yes. I agree with that absolutely. As I said before, tires tell the story of the kart. But that's not an easy thing to learn and it absolutely won't be learned over night, especially with the average Karter or someone just getting into the sport (no offense to anyone). But taking temps while also learning your surface isn't going to just kill your whole program, it's just more data/knowledge to throw in the note book and learn from in the future. It's another tiny aid to use in this dynamic sport, not an ultimate decision maker. I just didn't think it was totally fair to 100% write someone off from the get go when all they are searching for is more knowledge. It pays to be open minded in this sport. I've said what I wanted to say and as Brian said, we're not convincing you lol and that's fine, it wasn't the goal, we all have our own opinions and ways of doing things and most of us are set in those ways lol #BIGfacts

As we all know, there are multiple different ways to get to the same result in karting and in just about any other aspect of this life. I appreciate ALL knowledge shared here.
 
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