Tired of getting smoked

shinbone7

New member
I am new to karting, My kids race in the Jr stock 1 and Jr stock 2 classes, with clone motors. We have a prowler, and an ultramax, that are set up and handle well, both with vegas. I have two halls motorsports motors and race on a little less than a 1/4 mile track. they race mowers and dirt bikes on the same night with us. track is usually hard and fast. Last saturday night we turned a laptime of 12.02 and got lapped in 10 laps. The kids in the purple plate class was running the same laptimes as the box stock med class, that is unrestricted, their lap times were 10.5 consistantly. I noticed that they had flames shooting a foot and a half out of their winnie pipes and were told that the difference between us and them was their fuel. I will not cheat in anyway, due to wanting to teach my two boys to be respectable young men, with that being said what can I do to atleast catch them and run with them? you can email me at shinbone72005@yahoo.com if you do not want to post anything on here. I am new to the posts so I dont know how to do the private message thing, but will learn if anyone wants to share.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
 

jake17j

Member
if the track is hard and fast then the vega's might be a big part of your problem. also on a big track like that you'd be surprised on just how much being a bit off on your toe or having more stagger then you need will kill your speed.
 

paulkish

Premium User
A lighter kart running at the limit of grip can go just as fast as a heavier kart running at the limit of grip, if it is given time to build momentum and the hp advantage of the heavier kart is not more then what is needed to carry the additional weight.

It's also possible depending on the track circumstances, for the purple plate to be the fastest of all classes.

So what do you look for out on the track to see if there's cheating going on. Usually if you see one or two karts checked out and 12 karts running mostly equally, you can be pretty sure the two didn't check out just because of an aero advantage. It still could be some are just that much better, but with more karts it's more likely it's not the case. Another thing to take into consideration with young drivers is the strength difference between drivers. With purple and even gold plate, towards the end of a feature and even earlier, differences in physical driver strength will show up. Small horse jockey's always have an advantage racing, except when it comes to strength. It's less of a difference car racing when there is power steering available, but it can be a major difference with the physical demands of karting.

There are things you can do to make your karts easier to steer for your drivers.
 

old-timer

New member
shinbone7
To private massage someone, just click on their user name and you'll see a link to click on that says private message.
Just click on that link and the message window will open.

Vic
 
I am new to karting, My kids race in the Jr stock 1 and Jr stock 2 classes, with clone motors. We have a prowler, and an ultramax, that are set up and handle well, both with vegas. I have two halls motorsports motors and race on a little less than a 1/4 mile track. they race mowers and dirt bikes on the same night with us. track is usually hard and fast. Last saturday night we turned a laptime of 12.02 and got lapped in 10 laps. The kids in the purple plate class was running the same laptimes as the box stock med class, that is unrestricted, their lap times were 10.5 consistantly. I noticed that they had flames shooting a foot and a half out of their winnie pipes and were told that the difference between us and them was their fuel. I will not cheat in anyway, due to wanting to teach my two boys to be respectable young men, with that being said what can I do to atleast catch them and run with them? you can email me at shinbone72005@yahoo.com if you do not want to post anything on here. I am new to the posts so I dont know how to do the private message thing, but will learn if anyone wants to share.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
Confirm Actual Track size and re-post at 10.5 and 12 sec lap times it's not a little less than a quarter mile it's ALOT less than a quarter mile.

What gearing combo are you currently on ?
 
I have came across this a lot with Parents of newer Jr drivers and most every time the answers are the same, just lack of experience all the way around from Driver to set-up to tires and gearing, you state Track little less than a quarter mile which a true quarter is 1,320lf so little less I would think say 1,200 lf yet your lap times dictate a racing surface of around say 725 lf for a night race little more than a 1/8th mile track, HUGE Difference Restrictor Plate racing is all about momentum if the newer racers are not in the throttle 100% and the experienced racers are it makes a HUGE difference again, then comes gearing at say 11 sec lap times if indeed it's a MOMENTUM track your best gearing for a clone would be 15 driver 58 to 60 rear If track get's screaming FAST maybe a 16 driver 62ish rear but if it's a night race I don't see that happening, then there tires and pressures if your way off on them yet yes I can see getting lapped in 10 laps, I've been operating a 1/8th mile MOMENTUM dirt oval for 12yrs now and have seen people get lapped in 5 laps, and YES have had a few nights when TOP notch purple plate and Blue plate teams are present there times have been the best of the night for all classes.

Bottom line post ALL your information set-up, Cambers, Staggers, Seat Placement, RTW, more Tire info than just Vegas, and ACTUAL track size and more details on surface conditions, once we have that we can better tell you if your chasing cheaters or you just need time to step up your game.
And confirm if your drivers are 100% in the throttle and ready to race competitively. Don't mean to sound harsh but if that's not the case it is what it is and only TIME will make up the Difference.
 
We go through the same issues with junior drivers. It's easy to think that the others are cheating. But in reality they are in the throttle the whole time. Whe can run a fast lap here and there, but not every lap. In a 20 lap feature you will get lapped if not on top of your game. We are shooting for consistent laps now, and working on getting faster every time we go back. That's made the biggest difference for us, still have a long ways to go.
 
And you Sir will reap reward someday for handling it like that, for now pick out what you feel to be a more experienced driver in your class but not the best one and give your driver the Goal for the day is to just keep pace with him say the 4th place kart, then once he can keep pace with him keep raising the bar trust me it's a Great approach.

Good Luck !!
 

shinbone7

New member
Thanks everyone for the responses so far, I will try to give as much info as I can remember off the top of my head. We were able to run 100% throttle around the whole track on Saturday, My oldest son (11) drove like he was on a Sunday drive, meaning he did not fight the kart at all, rolled smooth through the corners and never got out of the groove, he has about 30 races under his belt with all being at this particular track. We ran a 15 driver with a 61 tooth rear, 6 lbs of pressure in the left side and 8 lbs of pressure in the right, thats about what everyone else is running. We are set up at 64% cross. Seat is off-est to the left a little and sitting in more of an up-right position, as are all the other kids in the class. Running 5400-6000 rpm range. We have been there a few times and run with the best karts there, turned around the next week and get lapped by the same karts. will get more info as I can. Again thanks guys!
 
From info you show 2 lb split, higher cross, seat off set left, Vegas, I would venture to say you never got into the track enough to every generate enough forward drive to every generate any real speed.

Good Luck !!
 

mopdog

Member
We go through the same issues with junior drivers. It's easy to think that the others are cheating. But in reality they are in the throttle the whole time. Whe can run a fast lap here and there, but not every lap. In a 20 lap feature you will get lapped if not on top of your game. We are shooting for consistent laps now, and working on getting faster every time we go back. That's made the biggest difference for us, still have a long ways to go.
There is more to just being wide open all the time also. Its the line, its the kart, its the tires. My daughter can run .4 to .5 faster then my friends kids on a 1/7 mile pavement oval and they are wide open also...
Make a friend and see if their kid will drive your kart....bet he wont be very much faster then your kid.
Its easy to say everyone else is cheating (not saying that you are) then it is to admit you dont know what your doing (not saying you dont). This is what chases alot of people off karting IMO but there isnt a way around it.
 

shinbone7

New member
Mopdog, there really is alot I dont know, but getting the local guys to help me has been really tough, thats why I asked on here to get a variety of things to try. I was told from day one that tires is what makes the difference. I have the same that they have, using same prep they use, running the same frame and pretty close on gear, just went through my whole kart and put new bearings all the way through. Bought a blueprinted motor that is supposed to be as good as theirs, and added a Holy Moses carb from Dover Power, and still same results. There must be something they are doing that I am not. Thats why I asked on here. I am being told that they are running 114 octane racing fuel and I am running gas out of the pump like we are supposed to. Their fuel is a pinkish red color and mine is blue. Could that be the major difference? I am not sure, It just amazes me that one week we can run with them and just not quite have enough to get around them and then the very next race they lap us sometimes twice.
 

jake17j

Member
running 114 in a stock clone would kill performance. in order to be running that fuel and making good power they have to be cheating. Either with compression or a hot fuel additive. just putting 114 in your motor would make it run like crap in a legal motor 87 is the best fuel to run. another thing to look at is not your top rpm but your rpm loss thru the corners. also watch your temps high temps is a sign that your kart is locked down( making to much grip) and slowing your corner speed
 

DynoDon

Member
And you Sir will reap reward someday for handling it like that, for now pick out what you feel to be a more experienced driver in your class but not the best one and give your driver the Goal for the day is to just keep pace with him say the 4th place kart, then once he can keep pace with him keep raising the bar trust me it's a Great approach.

Good Luck !!
Good advise Ken
 
Mopdog, there really is alot I dont know, but getting the local guys to help me has been really tough, thats why I asked on here to get a variety of things to try. I was told from day one that tires is what makes the difference. I have the same that they have, using same prep they use, running the same frame and pretty close on gear, just went through my whole kart and put new bearings all the way through. Bought a blueprinted motor that is supposed to be as good as theirs, and added a Holy Moses carb from Dover Power, and still same results. There must be something they are doing that I am not. Thats why I asked on here. I am being told that they are running 114 octane racing fuel and I am running gas out of the pump like we are supposed to. Their fuel is a pinkish red color and mine is blue. Could that be the major difference? I am not sure, It just amazes me that one week we can run with them and just not quite have enough to get around them and then the very next race they lap us sometimes twice.
That sounds like the week you run with them your tires and gearing are better matched to the track conditions. Then the following week the track changes and you run the same tire as last week, everyone else changed to match the track and left you. Just my opinion.
 

mopdog

Member
That sounds like the week you run with them your tires and gearing are better matched to the track conditions. Then the following week the track changes and you run the same tire as last week, everyone else changed to match the track and left you. Just my opinion.
And thats why I pavement race with my kid....I set of yellow Vegas will last 15 races plus with practices and you dont worry about em.
 
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