WAKE UPTrack Promotors

["J'-remy]

Don’t blame the engine builders, they are in business to earn a living like everyone. Customer says “I want this or that done”, of course they’ll serve the customer. It’s not their responsibility to play moral compass for the racer. You think a cheater won’t cheat up the 206?

They would make more money selling the clone. +I'id rather sell tires to 50 60 racers than cheater motors to 2 Most engine builders sell more than just engines. I buy chains bodies seats, oil tires wheels sprockets etc. seems like i spend all my spare cash chasing the front and i don't budget for cheating. better to grow the sport than to have three guys dominate and everyone else quits because its unfair. I saw a track owner let his flagman race for 2 years destroying everyone in stock armature with 1/2 track leads every Saturday night. Guess what happend to his armature count?

 

[racing promotor]

During my 16 years of running a track I learned a sure fire way to find the guy's running cheater motors, it was the ones crying the most everyone else was cheating !!

 

[mike97760]

I think the $50 max to win is a stupid thing. Look at the tracks, the highest count by far is predator. Why not let the class that brings you the most money get some money? I do agree that allowing anything to be done to these engines is stupid though

What entitles those who have invested the least to race for equal moneys as the more serious classes? If you're running for 80% payback, like a lot of places, and have these huge kart counts, pay should be decent

 

[aaron]

What entitles those who have invested the least to race for equal moneys as the more serious classes? If you're running for 80% payback, like a lot of places, and have these huge kart counts, pay should be decent

As I said in my post, $50 max to win. Kart count doesn't matter

 

[mike97760]

As I said in my post, $50 max to win. Kart count doesn't matter

If you knew that going in, and felt you were entitled to more, why do you you and the large numbers in your class race there? Bigger money goes against everything an economy class was designed for.

 

[Chipg56]

I think the $50 max to win is a stupid thing. Look at the tracks, the highest count by far is predator. Why not let the class that brings you the most money get some money? I do agree that allowing anything to be done to these engines is stupid though

You are really pointing out the inconsistencies found throughout the country as to the dominant engine. Apparently in your area "the highest count by far is predator". Here in New England, I have never seen a predator mounted on a kart. I hope I never do.

 

[Slack2014]

I know kinda off topic but look at what happened at Millbridge speedway last night! Some big names show up at the DNQ series and they are getting thrown out for cheating/breaking the rules! suppose to be a fun little pay out series but yet certain people can't stand to lose so they do whatever it takes to be up front it seems! So real question is if they do that there why wouldn't they do it at any other races they attend (predator class, clone, animal)?

People will take a 212 predator apart or buy several mix match combine parts for better tolerances/clearances. Basically rebuild the motor for better cylinder to piston fitment gap rings properly. Measure several sets of valve springs. Sand polish the crankshaft and or rod to get through the oil quicker. Redo the port angles on the head.

BUT if you can hit the RPM max and few simple rules you pass tech

If people believe that guys are lapping the field on OTB motors your lying to yourself.

 

[DynoDon]

Spirit and Intent
Even if you are new to karting you have heard the term “spirit and intent”. It is the concise description of how karting is run, pure, simple and undeniable. It is not some politically correct catch phrase that has its day and then fades away. It is the law governing the sport of karting for the last 50 years. It means that you may be judged based on your perceived spirit and apparent intent for your conduct at any time at the track. Indeed, you should judge yourself using the same criteria. The law of spirit and intent comes into effect when race officials are encountered with facets of karting not specifically addressed in the rulebook. At this point, officials must make decisions based not only on fact, but also on whether the infraction was a clear case of attempting to controvert the spirit of the event. It is many times the hardest decision for an official to make. Nobody likes to invoke the spirit and intent rule.
We urge you avoid causing a spirit and intent ruling by being fully aware of all the regulations that apply to you and your kart. It is impossible to write a rule for every aspect of karting. Before attempting modifications to your kart that are not specifically addressed in the rulebook, talk to the technical inspector and clarify the requirements. You should “intend” to compete successfully, but if your “intent” is winning by circumventing the rules, then you should reconsider your involvement in this sport

 

[Hrtmn450]

That would cut entries in less than half in less than 2 months.

Think of just the above mentioned guys tire game. They got more $ in tires then most preditor racers do in thier whole operation.

 

[jstrawser]

Clone 2.0, I give it three years at most...

IT'S ALREADY BEEN 3 YEARS ' 22 ENTRIES AT THE SELINSGROVE OPENER BIGGEST CLASS THERE WE WON WITH A LEGAL ENGINE WHATS THE PROBLEM ? THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE PREDATOR CLASSES

 

["J'-remy]

IT'S ALREADY BEEN 3 YEARS ' 22 ENTRIES AT THE SELINSGROVE OPENER BIGGEST CLASS THERE WE WON WITH A LEGAL ENGINE WHATS THE PROBLEM ? THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE PREDATOR CLASSES

you're in the wrong state. your legal engine won't make it in the Carolinas you need an $800 sneaky built motor to compete.

 

[Skidude]

you're in the wrong state. your legal engine won't make it in the Carolinas you need an $800 sneaky built motor to compete.

Sad but true.

 

[DynoDon]

You keep paying $100 to win and your no problem predator will bit you in the butt. You set the goal at $50. Now we are at $100. Who approved that?

 

[jaymancds]

Sad but true.

In Missouri I win with a completely legal $350 predator. The only reason it was that much was that I didnt have the tools to do the work myself. I also know that I race against cheater motors all year and still run with them. I would put that more on the tracks not randomly teching the winners enough, but I know, tech adds money blah blah blah.

 

[Menace61]

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE PREDATOR CLASSES

There is if you don't want a slow poor excuse for a race engine on your kart.

 

["J'-remy]

most of the tracks around here (TN) have a 5000 rpm limit. in the Carolinas it's 5500. it's almost if the tracks are giving the motor builders a

 

[CarlsonMotorsports]

Spirit and Intent
Even if you are new to karting you have heard the term “spirit and intent”. It is the concise description of how karting is run, pure, simple and undeniable. It is not some politically correct catch phrase that has its day and then fades away. It is the law governing the sport of karting for the last 50 years. It means that you may be judged based on your perceived spirit and apparent intent for your conduct at any time at the track. Indeed, you should judge yourself using the same criteria. The law of spirit and intent comes into effect when race officials are encountered with facets of karting not specifically addressed in the rulebook. At this point, officials must make decisions based not only on fact, but also on whether the infraction was a clear case of attempting to controvert the spirit of the event. It is many times the hardest decision for an official to make. Nobody likes to invoke the spirit and intent rule.
We urge you avoid causing a spirit and intent ruling by being fully aware of all the regulations that apply to you and your kart. It is impossible to write a rule for every aspect of karting. Before attempting modifications to your kart that are not specifically addressed in the rulebook, talk to the technical inspector and clarify the requirements. You should “intend” to compete successfully, but if your “intent” is winning by circumventing the rules, then you should reconsider your involvement in this sport

Interesting point, Don. And I agree! But when was the last time you saw the "spirit and intent" rule invoked? In nearly 50 years of being in karting, I can't say that I ever have (at least at the races where I have been personally.)
I totally agree with the rule and the concept, but as you mentioned, "Nobody likes to invoke the spirit and intent rule." That's because it is interpretive and no tech man wants to make a call based on appearance alone. Kind of like the "compare to known stock part" rule. It introduces interpretation via possible bias rather than black and white measurements. I get it, there is no rule book that can cover everything, but I think we can do better to eliminate the interpretation/appearance rulings (in all engine rules.)

There is no doubt that the Predator engines are being "cheated up" big time.
An engine builder getting $650 for a Predator is probably not just pulling it out of the box and bolting it on his dyno. I suspect there's considerably more being done (cylinder clearance, detensioning rings, twisting the cam or cam timing gear, valves and seat work, cylinder head and deck machining, carb work, etc etc.) That all comes at a cost, and from most rule sets, is all legal (disregarding the "spirit and intent.") Now, I say it's legal BECAUSE no one is invoking the spirit and intent rule and there is nothing "measurable" being detected in tech - therefor not illegal.

It's difficult enough to get good tech men WITH solid (measurable) rules to enforce -- tell them that they need to make judgment calls based on "appearance or intent," and I suspect that we'll lose even more. In my opinion, the whole Predator deal is doomed to repeat the same history as the clone as more rules are introduced.

Not to introduce another dog to the fight, but if you look at the L206 engine, the rules were written by the manufacturer, are fairly restrictive, and manufacturing variances can be much closer monitored and corrected. That and the fact that it is a purposely built and sealed race engine are big reasons that this package is successful, even at a $600 MSRP. Jimmy Sims group offers a similar sealed clone. I wonder why they have not caught on better with the low budget racers? Maybe it's the perception that you can still purchase HF Predators for $100, bolt them on and race them (competitively or not.) Maybe it's more that you cannot cheat them up as easily to gain an advantage. It seems that's the objective by some in racing, is to gain an advantage wherever they can. Whatever the reason, it doesn't matter what engine platform it is, builders will continually get requests to work the gray areas of the rules and beyond on their engines, and "spirit and intent" will always be difficult to enforce.



-----
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
32 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com

 

[jaymancds]

Interesting point, Don. And I agree! But when was the last time you saw the "spirit and intent" rule invoked? In nearly 50 years of being in karting, I can't say that I ever have (at least at the races where I have been personally.)
I totally agree with the rule and the concept, but as you mentioned, "Nobody likes to invoke the spirit and intent rule." That's because it is interpretive and no tech man wants to make a call based on appearance alone. Kind of like the "compare to known stock part" rule. It introduces interpretation via possible bias rather than black and white measurements. I get it, there is no rule book that can cover everything, but I think we can do better to eliminate the interpretation/appearance rulings (in all engine rules.)

There is no doubt that the Predator engines are being "cheated up" big time.
An engine builder getting $650 for a Predator is probably not just pulling it out of the box and bolting it on his dyno. I suspect there's considerably more being done (cylinder clearance, detensioning rings, twisting the cam or cam timing gear, valves and seat work, cylinder head and deck machining, carb work, etc etc.) That all comes at a cost, and from most rule sets, is all legal (disregarding the "spirit and intent.") Now, I say it's legal BECAUSE no one is invoking the spirit and intent rule and there is nothing "measurable" being detected in tech - therefor not illegal.

It's difficult enough to get good tech men WITH solid (measurable) rules to enforce -- tell them that they need to make judgment calls based on "appearance or intent," and I suspect that we'll lose even more. In my opinion, the whole Predator deal is doomed to repeat the same history as the clone as more rules are introduced.

Not to introduce another dog to the fight, but if you look at the L206 engine, the rules were written by the manufacturer, are fairly restrictive, and manufacturing variances can be much closer monitored and corrected. That and the fact that it is a purposely built and sealed race engine are big reasons that this package is successful, even at a $600 MSRP. Jimmy Sims group offers a similar sealed clone. I wonder why they have not caught on better with the low budget racers? Maybe it's the perception that you can still purchase HF Predators for $100, bolt them on and race them (competitively or not.) Maybe it's more that you cannot cheat them up as easily to gain an advantage. It seems that's the objective by some in racing, is to gain an advantage wherever they can. Whatever the reason, it doesn't matter what engine platform it is, builders will continually get requests to work the gray areas of the rules and beyond on their engines, and "spirit and intent" will always be difficult to enforce.



-----
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
32 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com

There is a point that I think we are missing a little in this thread. That view is this, I can run competitively with my racing budget in predator, or I can be a mid-pack to back marker running clone/SA/RWYB. Just to prove my point let me give you the numbers in dollars and cents that I spent last year and where I spent them.

$350 Engine
$900 Tires
$200 prep
$1400 Gate fees and travel (14 races)

To summarize, running predator, I was able to stay on fresh rubber all season. It was 2 sets of used maxxis and I believe 5 sets of Cobras. I was competitive all year, and even snuck in my first win. We all know tires are the name of the game no matter what class you are in. I don't have to do a rebuilt on my predator this year to be competitive.

Now if I was running clone in the same budget, I would've spent my tire budget and 2 race nights of entry fees on an engine. This would leave me with 12 races, and only $350 for tires. That is only 3 sets of 3 cobras. So I would have been racing less, on more heavily used tires, and probably had to spend more on prep to keep those older tires fresh. There is also no guarantee that I would have been competitive in clone. In preparing for this year I would have had to had my clone rebuilt, Which local to me is $300 plus parts, so $600ish for a freshen. Again, that would cut into my tire budget for this upcoming season.

I would rather be in the "slow" or "beginner" or "cheap" class and be competitive, and able to spend the money on what makes me fast, than be in the "real race engine" class and run 8th every week.

Yes cheating is ravaging predator, but until it takes $1000 to get a predator built, I will run predator.

 

[racinnut15xm]

Interesting point, Don. And I agree! But when was the last time you saw the "spirit and intent" rule invoked? In nearly 50 years of being in karting, I can't say that I ever have (at least at the races where I have been personally.)
I totally agree with the rule and the concept, but as you mentioned, "Nobody likes to invoke the spirit and intent rule." That's because it is interpretive and no tech man wants to make a call based on appearance alone. Kind of like the "compare to known stock part" rule. It introduces interpretation via possible bias rather than black and white measurements. I get it, there is no rule book that can cover everything, but I think we can do better to eliminate the interpretation/appearance rulings (in all engine rules.)

There is no doubt that the Predator engines are being "cheated up" big time.
An engine builder getting $650 for a Predator is probably not just pulling it out of the box and bolting it on his dyno. I suspect there's considerably more being done (cylinder clearance, detensioning rings, twisting the cam or cam timing gear, valves and seat work, cylinder head and deck machining, carb work, etc etc.) That all comes at a cost, and from most rule sets, is all legal (disregarding the "spirit and intent.") Now, I say it's legal BECAUSE no one is invoking the spirit and intent rule and there is nothing "measurable" being detected in tech - therefor not illegal.

It's difficult enough to get good tech men WITH solid (measurable) rules to enforce -- tell them that they need to make judgment calls based on "appearance or intent," and I suspect that we'll lose even more. In my opinion, the whole Predator deal is doomed to repeat the same history as the clone as more rules are introduced.

Not to introduce another dog to the fight, but if you look at the L206 engine, the rules were written by the manufacturer, are fairly restrictive, and manufacturing variances can be much closer monitored and corrected. That and the fact that it is a purposely built and sealed race engine are big reasons that this package is successful, even at a $600 MSRP. Jimmy Sims group offers a similar sealed clone. I wonder why they have not caught on better with the low budget racers? Maybe it's the perception that you can still purchase HF Predators for $100, bolt them on and race them (competitively or not.) Maybe it's more that you cannot cheat them up as easily to gain an advantage. It seems that's the objective by some in racing, is to gain an advantage wherever they can. Whatever the reason, it doesn't matter what engine platform it is, builders will continually get requests to work the gray areas of the rules and beyond on their engines, and "spirit and intent" will always be difficult to enforce.



-----
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
32 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com

i think part of the allure of the predator is it doesn't matter if you live in oklahoma, california or north carolina, you can go to harbor and buy one. I've been in karts almost 3 years and never heard of the Jimmy sims group and selling the sealed clones. i have heard of BSP selling them but they arent $100

 

[Chipg56]

No rules means no cheating. Establishing rules regarding measurements means every motor needs to be checked (and therefore massaged) prior to racing. Any poorly manufactured engine, weather it be the flathead, clone, predator or the next cheap engine down the road must and will follow this path. Parts will need to be checked, swapped, re-machined, or discarded. Like it or not this will cost money. Manufacturing and assembly consistency, from the factory, is what makes the LO206 the best box stock engine long term.