Box Stock

Well here it is

DynoDon said:
No one trying to come up with new rules!! Just my take on the situation. It is the responsibility of every track owner to see that all on the property are at a safe facility. Using fuels that are harmful to others who don’t know they are inhaling it is not a safe issue for all those on the property. My PERSONAL take is a permanent ban on anyone using harmful fuel.
Click to expand...
Benzene (used in legal fuel) is much more harmful than the chemicals mentioned in the ops post.
 
alvin l nunley said:
Cheating/not treating? Don't the rules Say Pump "Gas only"! Is that rule not clear?
Click to expand...
Define pump, and define gas, and define only. I have several hand pumps that I have used on fuel. Some Nitro, some Alky, and some gasoline. Gas is a state of matter, not a material. Only, ah what the definition of "is" is.
DynoDon said:
Anyone found to be using any additive intentionally to violate the spirit and intent of the sport should be banned from the sport for life.
Click to expand...
Hard to be innovative and follow the "spirit and intent" of any rule. Lets see, backwards running engines and scaled down cars come to mind.


For all of you that are concerned about "dangerous chemicals" or inhaling chemicals on the grid, what in the world do you think tire prep is? "Oh well this thing is worse than that thing". I call BS. If we were worried about the lungs of anyone at the race track we would start by requiring respirators, banning prep of all forms, banning tobacco use, not allowing grills, no generators, no burned fuel, and no open containers of fuel.

Simple fact, anything that is burned, should not be inhaled. It is absolutely horrible for you. The vapor of any fuel, should not be inhaled as it is gaseous chemicals. The vapors that come off of prep are not added vapors, they are from the chemical reaction happening with the prep and the evaporation therewith. I've never been to a track where at least half of the people in the pits have cigarettes hanging out of their mouths, and the stands are similar. Burning anything and inhaling will cause cancer. This is simple and commonly understood. Ask any firefighter, anything burning should not be inhaled.

Get over yourselves with this "This fuel additive is worse than anything else". Everything we do causes cancer, thats why its all over the labels that we never read.
 
even though the term "pump gas" is universally understood to mean the pump at the gas station, there are those amongst us, with thoughts of cheating apparently on their mind, that will try to obfusecate even the simplest of terms. I wonder what the rulebook would look like if every itemhad to be precisely explain to everybody's satisfaction.
 
alvin l nunley said:
even though the term "pump gas" is universally understood to mean the pump at the gas station, there are those amongst us, with thoughts of cheating apparently on their mind, that will try to obfusecate even the simplest of terms. I wonder what the rulebook would look like if every itemhad to be precisely explain to everybody's satisfaction.
Click to expand...
Im not supporting cheating, just that the devil is in the details, and that is why most rule books for any series are 20+ pages long.
 
While I certainly don't condone cheating, the idea of banning someone for life over failing a fuel test is pretty ridiculous.
How is the tech man to determine what chemicals (if any) have been added to the competitor's fuel?
Being a tech man myself, I can tell you that there is no way that we can determine in the field what is in fuel - only that it passes, or doesn't pass, a series of tests performed on it.
How then, can you consider it "cheating" over simply being illegal. We've all of us have seen fuel samples fail tech and I suspect that a very small percentage of those is the result of "blatant cheating." More often, it's contaminated containers, fuel tank, rain, air filter oil, etc etc.
I would never want to be the one responsible for making the decision to ban someone for life over a failed fuel sample, especially without definitive lab results to back up even any smidgen of suspect.
Oh yea, and what's to keep a nefarious competitor from putting a couple of drops of "something" in your fuel?
I'm not sure what Bennie's intent was in starting this post, but it's obviously enlightened more than a few followers of the thread - and I'm not sure that's a good thing.
Hopefully it highlights the need for more, and better, fuel tech at the track.


-----
🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
32 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
 
A competent tech that is knowledgeable about fuel would set aside the decision until the fuel was sent out for testing to determine the additive. Expensive? Yes However, if I got information that was lagitimate that a certain individual was using a harmful additive, I would take those steps to prove it. I can’t stand those who purposely take those steps to win. Hammer on me all you wish but that’s just my personal take on this issue. I apologize to those who take me as a hard BUTT
 
DynoDon said:
A competent tech that is knowledgeable about fuel would set aside the decision until the fuel was sent out for testing to determine the additive. Expensive? Yes However, if I got information that was lagitimate that a certain individual was using a harmful additive, I would take those steps to prove it. I can’t stand those who purposely take those steps to win. Hammer on me all you wish but that’s just my personal take on this issue. I apologize to those who take me as a hard BUTT
Click to expand...
Find me one weekly track that can afford to send fuel to a lab every time somebody fails the test. Same reason most "no prep" classes don't get tire samples tested. It just costs too much money. Big races? Sure. National stuff? Sure. Weekly show? No way.

Most tracks also struggle finding a truly unbiased tech man. If most tracks are like my local track, the tech man also builds several of the engines for those in question. Am I saying he is dishonest? No. But I have a feeling he wouldn't DQ anything he built. Kind of bad for business.
 
jjchat said:
Most organizations have a rule if found tampering with fuel you face a lifetime ban because this has LITERALLY killed people. Furthermore, if you run a big cam, while it is immoral, your competitors face not chance of physical harm. If you run fuel tainted with whatever chemicals, the people you race with are inhaling whatever noxious fumes you have decided to add to your fuel and face potentially severe physical outcomes without any prior knowledge or consent. Furthermore, you open up the karting facility and organizations to whole plethora of liability and sanctions. All so you could win a $20 trophy. The fact this needs to be explained to you demonstrates your respect for those who chose to compete with you.
Click to expand...
Don’t know where you are racing for just $20 trophy but you may want to consider somewhere else😂
 
I'm in total agreement with Don. Mixing up a toxic chemical cocktail with the sole intention to circumvent a fuel rule and give yourself an unfair advantage that puts the health of the racers, their wives/girlfriends and the CHILDREN present at risk without their knowledge is a totally different animal than installing a hot cam, or overlooking some other technical measurement. They are both cheating, but the consequences are potentially totally different.

In fact, I bet the in the hands of a clever attorney, you'd be found criminally liable for knowingly and intentionally subjecting everyone at the track to a known dangerous carcinogen...........If I was on that jury, I know how I'd vote.

IMO there is simply no room for someone willing to do this in our sport.
 
Last edited:
Big Chris said:
I'm in total agreement with Don. Mixing up a toxic chemical cocktail with the sole intention to circumvent a fuel rule and give yourself an unfair advantage that puts the health of the racers, their wives/girlfriends and the CHILDREN present at risk without their knowledge is a totally different animal than installing a hot cam, or overlooking some other technical measurement. They are both cheating, but the consequences are potentially totally different.

In fact, I bet the in the hands of a clever attorney, you'd be found criminally liable for knowingly and intentionally subjecting everyone at the track to a known dangerous carcinogen...........If I was on that jury, I know how I'd vote.

IMO there is simply no room for someone willing to do this in our sport.
Click to expand...
So based on this, I'm guessing you don't use prep, and don't race at places that do? Oh, right, prep doesnt count as chemicals around here. :rolleyes:
 
jaymancds said:
So based on this, I'm guessing you don't use prep, and don't race at places that do? Oh, right, prep doesnt count as chemicals around here. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Jay, there is a HUGE difference.

When someone uses prep they knowingly take that risk. Just like if a person decides to smoke cigarettes. They know it can cause cancer among other things, but they assume that risk anyway. A wise person who uses prep who is also concerned with protecting their health can take appropriate measure to reduce that risk such as elbow length gloves, safety glasses and the correct respirator designed to mitigate those VOCs.

If a racer decides to use a C3H6O cocktail with the sole intent to conceal it. Then that person is putting everyone else at the facility at risk without their knowledge. The other people had no choice in the matter, they didn't have the option to make a decision, our cheater did that for them. Selfishly, the cheater had no regard for the health and well being of everyone else including the children present. And they intentionally did this to gain an unfair advantage, just so they could win a go kart race.

To summarize, our cheater is intentionally poisoning everyone else around them, without their knowledge, for the sole purpose of giving themselves an unfair advantage. All of this is of course against the rules.

One is consent, the other is not. That's where the liability comes in. Not to be a jerk, I can explain this to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
Last edited:
Big Chris said:
Jay, there is a HUGE difference.

When someone uses prep they knowingly take that risk. Just like if a person decides to smoke cigarettes. They know it can cause cancer among other things, but they assume that risk anyway. A wise person who uses prep who is also concerned with protecting their health can take appropriate measure to reduce that risk such as elbow length gloves, safety glasses and the correct respirator designed to mitigate those VOCs.

If a racer decides to use a C3H6O cocktail with the sole intent to conceal it. Then that person is putting everyone else at the facility at risk without their knowledge. The other people had no choice in the matter, they didn't have the option to make a decision, our cheater did that for them. Selfishly, the cheater had no regard for the health and well being of everyone else including the children present. And they intentionally did this to gain an unfair advantage, just so they could win a go kart race.

One is consent, the other is not. That's where the liability comes in. Not to be a jerk, I can explain this to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Click to expand...
I understand your argument. I understand the concern for personal health. What I don't understand is the hypocrisy of this conversation.

Here is a situation I have dealt with on several occasions. I am pitted next to a QM team. Obviously they are not prepping and have young kids around. I am prepping like a mad man, and no matter what I do, they will be exposed to evaporating chemicals. Similarly, I don't smoke, but I spend all night parked next to a group that is smoking like trains, I did not consent to inhaling the smoke, but I am anyway. Also, If you find me someone at 99% of race track wearing a respirator I will give you $5.

My issue with this whole argument is that "We should ban this guy for his fuel because its unhealthy, but let me go prep my tires before we do it".

This is an oxymoronic argument to me. Arguing that somebody should be banned over the chemicals they are using is an absolute freaking joke.

Ban them for running cheater fuel, but don't make it worse just because they added something "dangerous" to it. Its all incredibly dangerous.
 
Propylene oxide (PO) should not be added to fuel because it is not legal and that would be cheating. That being said, the pseudo scientific claims on here about the dangers of PO are quite funny. Yea, it's bad stuff, but there are things already in legal gasoline that are proven to be far more dangerous than PO. There is nothing in the composition of PO that would create exhaust that is more dangerous than anything else contained in regular gasoline. In fact, PO could actually lower emissions of some toxic substances in engine exhaust. PO is listed as a possibly carcinogenic as are many components of gasoline such as benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, (xylenes), isoparaffins, and methyltert-butylether. with many of them proven to be even worse than PO. I wonder where this doom and gloom fake science stuff comes from?
 
Last edited:
captain flathead said:
Propylene oxide (PO) should not be added to fuel because it is not legal and that would be cheating. That being said, the pseudo scientific claims on here about the dangers of PO are quite funny. Yea, it's bad stuff, but there are things already in legal gasoline that are proven to be far more dangerous than PO. There is nothing in the composition of PO that would create exhaust that is more dangerous than anything else contained in regular gasoline. In fact, PO could actually lower emissions of some toxic substances in engine exhaust. PO is listed as a possibly carcinogenic as are many components of gasoline such as benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, (xylenes), isoparaffins, and methyltert-butylether. with many of them proven to be even worse than PO. I wonder where this doom and gloom fake science stuff comes from?
Click to expand...
This is my point exactly. The stuff is already wickedly bad for us.
 
jaymancds said:
What I don't understand is the hypocrisy of this conversation.
Click to expand...
You lost me here........

I stated I agree with Don. I sadi IMO I think those who goto this level of cheating should be banned from the sport. I listed my reasons as:
is it dangerous,
it is against the rules
it exposes people without their consent to harmful chemicals.

You call me a hypocrite because:
the people who pit next to you smoke,
you use tire prep "like a madman" next to quater midget kids
there are carcinogens in gasoline and tire prep so what's one more?

Do I have that right?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top