WF/ Animal questions

[yalipito]

Within the last year have gotten into racing small engines and I love it. There is one thing that I don't understand. The WF engine seems to be briggs top of the line engine but it comes with a 7100 rpm limiting coil. The animal has a 12k coil, why not the other way around? The WF has also a billet rod and the animal the squeeze cast one but again it is "allowed" to rev higher. Last but not least, the header. The WF has a small dia exhaust compared to what most use on the animal. Is the header another limiting factor or does it help with low end power? Please explain, thanks

Ozzie

 

[spud majic]

i think the original intent of the WF was sort of what the lo206 is to stock racing but for modified. they make a bit more power have a decent sized cam, higher compression, coated piston etc all while staying right around $1k. and the electric start gave it a bit of a TAG(touch and go) type persona. the 7100 is to keep it making decent power and reliable long term.

 

[Flash-o-matic]

The WF was designed to meet an international spec (CIK). Basically a self starting 4 cycle package priced at a $1000 with good reliability. It is probably the most misunderstood engine in the Briggs line up. At our local track (PKRA) it is by far the most popular class with over 40 in the Phoenix area and growing steadily since I introduced it 4 years ago. Enough power to be interesting and reliability to wow any 2 cycle racer. While the majority of our WF racers are new karters that got into the sport because of the low initial and upkeep costs of the package, many of our racers are ex tag and shifter racers that appreciate the close racing inherent with the class. I'll be glad to answer any questions on WF racing and help anyone, anywhere, establish this class at their venue. The LO206 is great, the WF is just a giant leap forward in the fun factor!

 

[zenawarrior]

As far as I understand the question, non have answered it. Yalipito ask a very good question, and I don't think he will get an answer, because Animal at 12000 rpm is suddenly unreliable and WF at 7100 is reliable. All I can think of is that the Animal with the small cam will never be able to hit even 8000 rpm, where as the Wf could hit 8500 with a 12000 rpm coil. Small pipe more torque, bigger pipe more revs ....imo. Hope someone can give a better answer.

 

[directdrive]

Do the World Formulas run with limited modified Animals?

 

[Flash-o-matic]

When an Animal is blueprinted it is very close to a WF. Of course most BP'd Animals run methanol. Performance wise they are very close. Animals are allowed to run the billet rod. They are capable of 8000 rpm ( I'm told). I've tested on my legal WF using an Animal coil and I doubt it will go 8500 with the stock springs which are required to utilize the compression relief on the cam. The fact is they are designed for different classes. If you are talking no rules racing use which one makes the most sense economically. The WF's do not run with limited modifieds,,apples and oranges, different classes. The best way to understand this is to get an IKF or WKA rulebook.

 

[directdrive]

Fair Comparison?

Colorado Limited Modified Animal

The Colorado Limited Modified Animal (LMA) is the motor to have in the 4 cycle class of the Colorado Sprint Championships. At 15+ hp it runs with the World Formula but is way more tunable.

CSC Rules: Limited Modified Animal by IKF section 708, with the following exceptions: 708.3 Air filter -Non-tech; 708.4 Carburetor- Any Stock Appearing Tillotson /venturi I.D . 875 no-go; 708.5 Intake Non-tech; 708.9 Camshaft .308 Max Running Lift; 708.17 Valve Springs Non-tech; 708.31 Valve Lifters Non-tech; 708.32 Connecting Rod - Billet Allowed/Stock Length; 350 lbs

To run competitively in the CSC Sr 4 cycle class you will need an LMA or World Formula. The following table show what you will need for each motor package. Taxes, shipping and labor are not included in the break out.
Base Animal: Price Units Extended
Briggs & Stratton Animal 2 $491.00 1 $491.00
RLV Pipe Kit $55.00 1 $55.00
Pump Kit $35.00 1 $35.00
5 degree key $1.00 1 $1.00
1 $-
Base Animal $582.00

Limited Modified Upgrades:
308 Cam
World Formula 308 Cam (557041) $40.00 1 $40.00
Heaver Valve Springs (Optional) $20.00 2 $40.00
Vangaurd Lifters (710530) or WF Lifters (557038) $10.20 2 $20.40
Billet Rod
World Formula billet rod (557005) $83.10 1 $83.10
Tillitson HL383AL $95.00 1 $95.00
Tillition Phase 2 Linkage ECLK-131 $15.00 1 $15.00
Velocity Stack $13.00 1 $13.00
Intake (Optional) $38.00 1 $38.00
KN Filter $30.00 1 $30.00
1 $-
LMA Parts $374.50

Base Limited Modified Animal Cost $956.50


Base World Formula:
World Formula (Includes a $140 Premier WF Clutch) $1,000.00
Silencer RLV 4108 $45.00
$1045.00

 

[PD Power]

Once anyone has figured out "why" these engines are done this way, how will it improve the finder outers performance on the track?
Might as well ask why Briggs uses the size valve, or stroke. The answer is "because they can."

 

[Flash-o-matic]

Biggest reason for the success I've had introducing 4 cycle racing into nothing but 2 cycle country ? The WF was a "complete package" as is just about every 2 cycle program right now ( TAG, Rotax,etc.) . To introduce 4 cycle racing as I did in this area with a Ltd. Mod. engine would have been a complete failure. The WF is a VERY easy package to run and maintain. Being an engine guy I really like the Ltd. Mod. package. There are not too many "engine guys" racing karts today. Biggest issue with Ltd. Mods for newbies: Added cost of electric starter and the Tillitson carb. Just my opinion, but it is a very experienced opinion.

 

[Jimbo]

Your list includes an Animal 2. If you mean a generation 2 Animal i would strongly suggest you upgrade to a Gen 5 Animal.
As a Briggs dealer i can't buy a WF cam for any where near $40.00.
There is no reason to use a #5 key with a PVL ignition found on a Gen 5 Animal
Are you allowed to run with out a muffler?
A blueprinted Tillitson carb from a reputable carb builder will cost way more than $95.00

 

[Steve Vermeer]

The WF will go to 8500 with SOME degree of reliability.The lifespan is going to be short[maybe a few weekends].The 7100 coil package is very raceable,however,many people insist on putting them on the chip foe extended periods and that really disrupts the carb function[might be part of the difficult to tune problem]?I've been very satisfied with mine in both tuning and performance.It's a gen 1, one of the first batches produced,and has been upgraded over the years with a forged crank and updated ignition.I know the gen 1 blocks have a reputation for breaking,but this one has survived many a beating at the hands of it's owner[with an occasional splash of holy water for good measure].

 

[Freezeman]

Directdrive, Your post brought back memories from my past. Where are you going to race? Welcome to Bob's 4cycle. The last time the CSC classes ran Mod animal was about 10 years ago. It was the fat boys mod animal @ 380 or 390#'s on Methanol. If you are what your screen name implies you don't need a clutch. I still have some old mod animals, direct drive gears, Championship trophies and jackets sitting on the shelf if you are in need of any help. Flash-o-matic makes many valid points yet there has been a bit of a push lately towards adult industrial 4 stroke racing here in Colorado with people wanting to use anything from the LO206 to mod big blocks, like PD said "because they can". The problem becomes finding a way to let every one run what they want and also end up with competitive racing. Strict limiting rules are the easy way to even out the competition but that doesn't promote old and new racers to utilize what ever they want to on race day. I recently came up with an idea that might be a way to make that happen and think it may be tested out a few times next season.
It's Bracket kart racing where you qualify and that time is used to determine when you start the race and you are penalized after the race for any lap time that you run that was faster than your qualifying time. This prevents sand bagging and promotes consistent lap times. The slower qualifying brackets get a timed head start to the faster brackets then ideally if everyone is consistent to there qualifying time, everyone would cross the finish line at the same time LOL. With Mylaps scoring and timing I think this would be a good way to promote 1 new and true class of run what you brung to our large sprint racing tracks here in Colorado.

 

[spud majic]

Freeze- read "autocross PAX". this is only useful for time trials. on a real race track that would be a mangled mess

 

[Flash-o-matic]

If you are trying to get a 4 cycle class for adults going I highly recommend LO206 or WF. Biggest reason, established,tight, rules. Don't want to get into Briggs vs. the world, I'm just stating observed success with these engines and HAPPY racers! As far as old stuff sitting on shelves, perhaps that's a good thing. Perceived cost savings is just that sometimes....perceived.

 

[Freezeman]

We all ready have a lot of established tight rules being used which I think you would have to agree they also eliminate many people that either have karts or want to buy a kart that doesn't fit into the click that runs the race day. I am often surprised at the amount of practice day racers I meet at the tracks that tell me the last thing they want to do is spend more money to comply to some other peoples idea of what they should have in order to have fun while racing a kart around the track. I am not trying to get a class of adults going, they are all ready "going" or want to go and I just see the need to give them something to go to. Who knows the Briggs vs. the World might even be determined after the end of a mangled mess. I am sure it will be difficult to get a race like this started, yet one very nice thing would be ease of tech after the race. I can see the checked flag waving as the droner approaches it with a screaming hog running it down. What is useless to some is often useful to others.

 

[alvin l nunley]

Bracket racing, sounds so easy, but we did that in drag racing 50 years ago, (not exactly what you're saying) and it had its problems then.
Still, you should try it in a couple of races and see how it works out.

 

[directdrive]

Hey, I just pulled that off the net. Just found it interesting what it would take for the Animal to run with the WF.The guy asked about the different rods and such. Didn't mean to start a big controversy.

 

[Freezeman]

No controversy here DD. The interest to make even stock packages comparable to each other has been the perfect yet seldom achievable goal sense racing was invented. In karting the closest thing I have seen that achieves this is the LO206 and the FR125 Rotax which booth utilize a type of strict rules and seals that attempts to keep people from improving upon there power out put.
Alvin, I think that bracket racing will get try'ed out next season in a few club races. Even last year some of our best races on the big sprint tracks was a mixture of weights, ages, and motor packages all racing hard together while being scored separately which turns several 3-5 kart classes into a field of 20 karts battling each other to the end. To me the qualifying/starting method would be rather easy to use for any clutched single geared kart yet I would like to come up with a way to include shifter karts as well and need a easy way to measure/penalize the advantage that they have in a standing start.

 

[kartrcr]

Directdrive, Your post brought back memories from my past. Where are you going to race? Welcome to Bob's 4cycle. The last time the CSC classes ran Mod animal was about 10 years ago. It was the fat boys mod animal @ 380 or 390#'s on Methanol. If you are what your screen name implies you don't need a clutch. I still have some old mod animals, direct drive gears, Championship trophies and jackets sitting on the shelf if you are in need of any help. Flash-o-matic makes many valid points yet there has been a bit of a push lately towards adult industrial 4 stroke racing here in Colorado with people wanting to use anything from the LO206 to mod big blocks, like PD said "because they can". The problem becomes finding a way to let every one run what they want and also end up with competitive racing. Strict limiting rules are the easy way to even out the competition but that doesn't promote old and new racers to utilize what ever they want to on race day. I recently came up with an idea that might be a way to make that happen and think it may be tested out a few times next season.
It's Bracket kart racing where you qualify and that time is used to determine when you start the race and you are penalized after the race for any lap time that you run that was faster than your qualifying time. This prevents sand bagging and promotes consistent lap times. The slower qualifying brackets get a timed head start to the faster brackets then ideally if everyone is consistent to there qualifying time, everyone would cross the finish line at the same time LOL. With Mylaps scoring and timing I think this would be a good way to promote 1 new and true class of run what you brung to our large sprint racing tracks here in Colorado.

We ran ETRACER at our road race for several years and worked fairly well and we did it at our sprint track too. But it was a bit hard to comprehend as we could not incorporate live placing on the mylaps. I did try to get AMB to write the class as an add on but they were not interested. The idea would work for all forms of racing. I haven't really tried to work with a software person to make it work live but I think it would be great thing. here is a link of the rules http://portlandkarting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3677
Anyway in the last several winter series at our sprint track series we run a modified Austrian Pursuit race. We run 10 minute session of all entries and use their best time to set up the handicap. We stagger the start according to the handicap time for 15 laps. If a contestant ran faster than 3% of their qualify time they are docked 15 seconds. Works really well as the only tech is for safety.
Sorry to highjack the thread.

 

[Flash-o-matic]

Spent a lot of my life bracket racing on drag strips. Saw it go from a great concept that rewarded good driving to a technological disaster that have racers spending more on electronics than go fast equipment ( we were supposed to be "racing"). The electronics made it possible for a trained monkey to be able to win ! Just be careful what you wish for.