Why no Billet or re-cast block?

CarlsonMotorsports said:
The stock class is still available and doing well in certain areas. Limiteds are strong 2 or 3 times a year at some big shows.

OEM parts availability continues to be an issue. Few builders can build an entirely new flathead engine with new genuine Briggs parts. I would guess I am on a very short list of those builders. We have plenty of parts to build these engines for several years into the future, but eventually they will dry up, and we'll need to start using "donor" parts from other engines. Parts like crankshafts are NLA from the factory. Although we do have plenty in stock for the time being - we are not selling many retail because of the lack of ability to replace them if needed.
Burris has(d) pistons, rings, sidecovers, and cylinder heads. There is a Chinese carb copy (albeit terrible quality.) There was an importer for aftermarket sheet metal (NARP) so the ability to recreate these is possible as well.
With Briggs having to file bankruptcy a few years back, could the blueprints and/or molds be purchased for the flathead blocks to be reproduced?
I can tell you that there is a pretty solid niche market for vintage restoration projects using these old flatheads - from karts to mini-bikes and all sorts of other home-made concoctions. At the current rate, I'll never run out of work. :)


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Remember there was a clone flathead and briggs shut it down.
Briggs is the reason no clones were ever produced
 
XXX#40 said:
Yes it was done by an American company in China.
Briggs still holds all the patents and shut it down
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See, the patents are worth nothing at this point if they aren't still producing the engine. I would think that someone (China?) would pick it up illegally the way they do everything else, although I'm sure the quality would be a disaster. (ex. there are flathead carbs on ebay for $15 - and yes, they are a terrible copy for our use, but for the mini-bike crowd or someone fixing and old tiller, they'll work just fine.
Burris stuff was alright - we still use their repops. I don't think that Kurt is interested in reviving the flathead at this point though -- he'd probably be happy just to get rid of all the new old stock they still have.
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
See, the patents are worth nothing at this point if they aren't still producing the engine. I would think that someone (China?) would pick it up illegally the way they do everything else, although I'm sure the quality would be a disaster. (ex. there are flathead carbs on ebay for $15 - and yes, they are a terrible copy for our use, but for the mini-bike crowd or someone fixing and old tiller, they'll work just fine.
Burris stuff was alright - we still use their repops. I don't think that Kurt is interested in reviving the flathead at this point though -- he'd probably be happy just to get rid of all the new old stock they still have.
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I think time has ran out by now on those patents, unless briggs is still making flatheads for lawnmowers? They were a couple years ago.
I agree they wouldn't of been as good as factory, I only seen a picture of the block so you couldn't tell to much about it.
 
The Robins I linked are a Suburu copy, and appear to be an industrial type all over Asia... probably not going away soon.
But not a good replacement for the Briggs unless you did the dyno and development work to nail down every spec like the Briggs had.
And then you'd have a cheap Chinese engine with variable parts quality just like the clone...

This is why it seems like a billet block and head is the best solution. Could even be 2 piece for easier manufacture.
Valves should be no problem. Cranks, Pistons and conrods would be the pieces to nail down.

AI claims that the Animal crank and Flathead crank are the same stroke... What are the practical differences? Why can't an Animal crank be used in a flatty? Seems like that solves the crank sourcing issues, if possible.
 
Ai has the caveat , this may be incorrect .
IE:animal crank has less stroke then the flathead .
I have too agree , there is no way the flathead makes a resurgence in main stream sanctioned racing .
The just because it's old , doesn't make it cheap scenario .
Currently building 2 modified , only because I have plenty of parts and prices , and still think I should just hot rod a clone or predator. Alas I and the Driver are the Nostalgic types . Plus we almost whooped em in the clone class with stock flathead a few years back .
 
It remember everyone saying to put a Flathead Crank in the Animal to build a stroker, how much it's stroked I don't remember.
 
Flathead and Animal cranks are not the same - several differences (including stroke.)
Flathead stroke is 2.437."
Animal/206 stroke is 2.200."
The rod journal is also a different size.

China already made a copy of the crank so it should be available again if there were enough demand.
ARC (and others) have billet rods for the flathead, and Burris has pistons.
Flywheels could be updated to ARC or PVL for simplicity and safety.
It's "do-able" if there is enough demand/desire by the old-timers to bring it back.
Trust me - I'm all in, but at this point in life I'm not throwing what little retirement I have at any big projects like this.
 
I hear that, I have been trying to sell an open flathead that I documented spending $2000.00 in parts alone 26 years ago. The only interest I have gotten so far is an offer of 200 bucks from a young mini biker. With 35 years of kart racing/building over with for me it seems like all the money I traded for parts and peace's is now worth nothing.
 
Freezeman said:
I hear that, I have been trying to sell an open flathead that I documented spending $2000.00 in parts alone 26 years ago. The only interest I have gotten so far is an offer of 200 bucks from a young mini biker. With 35 years of kart racing/building over with for me it seems like all the money I traded for parts and peace's is now worth nothing.
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That pretty much describes my situation as well. Couple that with the fact that I refuse to work on clones, Predators, Ducars, etc....I've made my bed and accept it. I still have plenty of work and sleep well each night though. :) Retirement (whatever that is) is looming closer and closer and selling the shop doesn't appear to be funding more than a night out on the town. I'll continue to work on and support flatheads as long as I have breath in my lungs.
 
Ted Hamilton said:
One big difference is that the WKA is now so weak as to be almost powerless to provide stability, act as accountability, and provide a strong centralizing force. Once it became beholden to various manufacturers instead of standing mostly alone and working for the good of the sport, the pie started being divied up, as you say. The tail wags the dog.

In an 'ideal' karting world, there would be ONE national body, all tracks would have to go to it for insurance and rules conformity (tech) decisions and training, and it would be a neutral body, acting with the advice of all parties (and sometimes none) to make rules for the good of the sport. (I expect this to produce more laughing.)

Right now, you're perhaps right -- even a 'stock' class doesn't work because there's no teeth to keep any track from running a 'local option' ruleset, and once that happens, the fragmentation is baked in. It's frustrating that selfishness and short-term economic greed have robbed the sport of a backbone.

That said, the benefit of the flathead rules are they they're essentially 'frozen' now. There's still nothing preventing a local option variant, but everyone just goes by the old rules...
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In Europe they do have a single National body in every country, run by FIA? CIK, and instead of making things cheaper it forces everyone to race expensive karts and engines which are only approved for a short number of years, and after these years you need all new stuff. And that's supposed to be stock for them. Hving options and different bodies actually help competition and reduced prices.
 
CIK/FIA has lost the plot...they're turning karting into F5. We have a good discussion going on Kartpulse about it...
 
Ted Hamilton said:
CIK/FIA has lost the plot...they're turning karting into F5. We have a good discussion going on Kartpulse about it...
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That's why the more you put all power into one single organization the worse it works for the karters. More competence and offer helps a healthier sport.
 
Chipg56 said:
That may be true but having numerous sanctioning bodies hasn't been good for the racers either.
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Maybe but better than a single one forcing everyone to be on the same stuff and race at the same places to fill the pockets of a few people.
 
There is only so much pie .
Went through this when WKA fractured.
Multiple people tried to set up and runs series . In the Midwest there wasn't enough pie to go around and it hurt participation
Every where.
 
flattop1 said:
There is only so much pie .
Went through this when WKA fractured.
Multiple people tried to set up and runs series . In the Midwest there wasn't enough pie to go around and it hurt participation
Every where.
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Participation is way lower in Europe with a single organization, believe me.
 
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