With This Fuel & Oil Additive problem continuing to get more out of hand, Makes me Wonder Why ?

[rebsfan4]

The problem isn't the lack of training. Training can come easy enough. If one wants to learn the correct way on ANY given proceedure.... they will. It's a matter of want to. NO governing body can impose the "want to" of an individual. Another problem lies within the context of your thread already. The equipment necessary to achieve what it is you are looking for is expensive. Not so much expensive to some as it is to others. Expensive non the less. Looking at the picture on a much broader scale......the vast majority of your tech man are spread across the US at a local level. The vast majority of the people you see on B4C are spread across the US at a local level. It's hard for a person working tech at a local level to force themselves to release $600-$800 on a fuel tester.

 

[rebsfan4]

your opening a while new can of worms when you start talking about all the crap, yes I call it like I see it, crap that's being put into tire prep these days. crap that can burn if it gets on your skin, known carcinogens, extremely flammable and volatile liquids...crap that can and will kill you if ingested, absorbed or breathed in......and you have people on here expounding how great this crap is. and when your racing behind them, you are exposing yourself to it!! then you add in the crap that they are putting in the fuel that gets blasted out the pipe straight into your face? even wearing a full face helmet, your exposed!! all in the name of winning a race and risking your health....sometimes I wonder just how stupid some people are when it comes to creating stuff that will harm them and anyone else around them....and they do it in their house or shop and a lot of times, they have their little kids around them!!


off the soap box now....back to watching wrestling..........last words....wise up folks before you kill yourself or your young ones trying to create the greatest prep in the world.....

Is there anything you actually like about karting.

You hate prep.
You hate engine rules.
You hate weight classes.
You hate payout.

I mean what else is there? Geeeez........

 

[Dover Power]

I didn't read all the post...
I still stand by my gun on these two issues..

Pump Around on fuel..
As for oil additives that would increase combuston.. A clone doesn't run good loose.. Thats why you hardly see them smoking like some of the ole flatheads.. If you're not getting the additive by the rings then no gains.. testing any oil thas been run in a gas burning engine is not a fair test for he racer,, many will support a flame or flash due to the hiflash point of gas or its vapor / residue.

I really think we will end back up on methanol in the near future, its proven much safer and we have successfully been able to tets it wthout sending the fuel out to be anylized..

 

[captnimo]

I keep hearing that there is so many additives that you can't catch, but yet have not seen a name of one that if enough is used to give any power gain that the Digatron DT 64 fuel tester won't catch if its used as a comparison tester. In other words set a range on the DT64 fuel tester that all karters fuel must fall within on DC1 readings and also look at the DC2 reading and see what the fuel reads on that window, anything other than a plus or minus 3 counts off zero will tell you that their is an additive not normally found in the fuel being tested, I realize that if you go only by DC1 tests on the Digatron fuel testers that karters can get within your range set by mixing additives that will either raise or lower the readings, but regardless of what they used to get within those ranges it will effect the DC2 readings if its anything other than Gasoline or methanol/alky. This is if you calibrate the Digatron fuel tester with the known agents we recommend.
We sell more units over seas than locally, why, because they know how to use the instrument. $700 is really not that much for the quality and ease of use of the Digatron Dt64 fuel tester, not every karter has to have one and its fast to test with.
For those who keep saying there are additives that the unit won't catch, go borrow a new unit and perform your tests after calibrating the unit like its suppose to be done and then compare readings with a fuel without your additives and with the additives and pay real close attention to the DC2 readings. We also have a better temp sensitive compensating circuit to compensate for temp changes and keep readings more stable.

 

[A Finney]

Have the racers help pay to solve the problem, just like electronic scoring. Just like in the rest of life a couple of people who can not follow the rules will cost the rest of us. Charge each entry $4 and the track supply the fuel. One gallon of fuel per entry would be more than enough fuel for each entry to run for that class. Then have a zero tolerance policy with a fuel test.

 

[Dover Power]

Cecil
I'm not here to prove you wrong.. BUT I want to ask you a good question..
OK Lets say the tech comes up with a certain number on the tester for that day.. They usually allow a plus or minus..
If racer A comes in within those numbers is he considered legal ? I assume it should be YES...
OK racer B also comes within the numbers,, his fuel might be a shade different on tint or smell.. Is he legal too?

I wish they could stop some of this stuff.. IT IS going on at the big money races in the south.. In our testing we have seen upwards of 1/2 to 3/4 hp gains..
The guys that do this also own a tester..thats how they know what they can do and get by..
The Chemical test has been able to catch it,, but its expensive for the tracks... And not many are taking part in it..
Foresure we don't want to go back to sight and smell opinion to determine legal fuel... That sniffer is domed with a death sentence..

Here's a very funny thing that took place many years ago.. I started racing in 1969.. Small lock Tecumseh on gas... The fuel check was a styrofoam coffee cup.. Pourthe fuel in it and it hd better go right through the bottom in a couple seconds.. I not you were wrong...lol

 

[Pavehawk]

The thing about making everyone have to use Alky, is that not everyone has access to alky where they live and race, and for those that dont, it becomes alot more expensive to get it and defeats the purpose of budget racing. It is common sense to stick with gasoline that can be found at any gas station anywhere in the country rather than alky that can only be purchased at certain places or shops that sell it. Like others have said, running alky also comes with its own set of problems, it is not just a cure all fix for the fuel problems at hand. If you like to use alky so much, just run a class that allows you to use it.

We are talking about tracks that have alky that have a vote in this sport... If the track that you race at doesnt have it or a way to get it then stick to gas....

 

[Pavehawk]

Ya they can use the same test, there lies the problem 80% or more of the products being used does not show up in those test.
Plus my post says FUEL did not mean just gas, meant BOTH.

Gas is a waste of time... I have seen this post over and over again... Alky is the way to go. You never saw this topic over and over when all classes ran alky.

 

[oletom]

Ken, most people are missing the big picture here and it is not just a matter of someone cheating to gain an advantage.There are known carcinogens in fuel and oil additives and I don't even want to go into what is in tire prep. At Borgers we have a strict no tire prep rule and fuel rule. Keep in mind there are now testing devices that can detect parts per billion and in some cases parts per trillion. In other words if it is there it can be detected.

Oil and fuel is spilled in the pits. Exhaust particulates setttle on to the track and pits. Tire residu also settles on the track and in the pits. Rain washes all these bad things off site and who knows where they go. I am surprised the anti racing public has not got wind of this. Once they do and once they get a track shut down because of this the tracks will fall like dominos once a precedent is set.

People have known about this for a long time and nothing is being done about it. Something must be done now before it is too late.

our local track owner also owns a over the road trucking company, he know and understands the chemicals in these tire preps and doesn't allow any prepping with any thing but simple green, cant even imagine the chemicals kids and adults inhale just from the dust from the track , no wonder the cancer rate is so high in this country.

 

[Don K]

Something must be done now before it is too late.

What can be done? Tire prep and power adders are accepted practice in many circles of racing. Companies like Trac-Tac and Powermist earn sizable incomes providing products to racing communities and virtually every dealer and distributor benefit from the sales of these products as well.

Pump around can help control fuel issues but they are labor intensive to the track. Those costs have to be passed on to the race teams in form of higher entry costs and or high fuel cost.

Oil and fuel is spilled in the pits.

All tracks could easily impose a tarp rule. Most teams would accept this.

DK

 

[racing promotor]

Gas is a waste of time... I have seen this post over and over again... Alky is the way to go. You never saw this topic over and freaking over when all classes ran alky.

I'm a Track owner that created the post and YES I got problems with alky, I also Attend EVERY other event around here and YES they got problems with alky infact that's about all we run,
You must just be a clone hater I guess.

 

[racing promotor]

Have the racers help pay to solve the problem, just like electronic scoring. Just like in the rest of life a couple of people who can not follow the rules will cost the rest of us. Charge each entry $4 and the track supply the fuel. One gallon of fuel per entry would be more than enough fuel for each entry to run for that class. Then have a zero tolerance policy with a fuel test.

Think about this statement, The Fuel tester's not picking it up now, plus for the racer adding this stuff what's the difference if he brings his fuel and adds it,or I hand him a jug of fuel and he adds it, or even if we would fuel tanks at the grid and he just has the additive in the bottom of the tank and we top it off, It's still being used.

 

[racing promotor]

Guy's this thread is way off topic for most, I have NO problem with that I always digest what EVERYONE has to say, However all the Idea's are not SURE Proof, my point is these Rule Bodies want to take the lead with parts specs ( which is fine ) WHY do they AVOID this issue when it's WAY more out of hand than cheating parts, That's the biggest reason WHY is my main point, Jerry just mentioned the Sterofoam cup deal trust me there is a SIMPLE Inexspensive why just like the drops of bleach in fuel with any Nitro in to catch all the different stuff, it might be add grape kool aid to one and always reacts a certain way that shows proof, So why are these Rule Bodies NOT playing chemist like us Owner / Operators are forced to do and figure this thing out.
To my Knowledge there's about 8 different products being used say with Help from others behind the scenes we've figured out 3 of them, If we got some HELP we could soon have them all covered, all it takes is the Product and TIME.

 

[racing promotor]

I keep hearing that there is so many additives that you can't catch, but yet have not seen a name of one that if enough is used to give any power gain that the Digatron DT 64 fuel tester won't catch if its used as a comparison tester. In other words set a range on the DT64 fuel tester that all karters fuel must fall within on DC1 readings and also look at the DC2 reading and see what the fuel reads on that window, anything other than a plus or minus 3 counts off zero will tell you that their is an additive not normally found in the fuel being tested, I realize that if you go only by DC1 tests on the Digatron fuel testers that karters can get within your range set by mixing additives that will either raise or lower the readings, but regardless of what they used to get within those ranges it will effect the DC2 readings if its anything other than Gasoline or methanol/alky. This is if you calibrate the Digatron fuel tester with the known agents we recommend.
We sell more units over seas than locally, why, because they know how to use the instrument. $700 is really not that much for the quality and ease of use of the Digatron Dt64 fuel tester, not every karter has to have one and its fast to test with.
For those who keep saying there are additives that the unit won't catch, go borrow a new unit and perform your tests after calibrating the unit like its suppose to be done and then compare readings with a fuel without your additives and with the additives and pay real close attention to the DC2 readings. We also have a better temp sensitive compensating circuit to compensate for temp changes and keep readings more stable.

Again Better Yes Full Proof NO, It's being used and It's getting CHEATED.

 

[Ohio83]

PowerMist Racing Additives has an entire website dedicated to additives which are undetectable in both Gas and Alky alike. Oxygenated fuels, additives, etc...it's all there for anyone who has the money to buy and the time to research and test.

 

[racing promotor]

PowerMist Racing Additives has an entire website dedicated to additives which are undetectable in both Gas and Alky alike. Oxygenated fuels, additives, etc...it's all there for anyone who has the money to buy and the time to research and test.

Now your getting where were at, we are buying it and testing and have figured out 2 of them for Gas or ALKY, were looking from some help, and if it came from these Rule Bodies it would carry more Clout.

 

[tonypowerracingengine]

I think the tracks that are having a problem with the cheating is mainly because they are just looking for kart counts to pay the bills. that is a major problem it always come down to the money. i have never had a problem finding the cheaters in a few decades. but i have been stopped many times. most of the time the big cheaters have big money and they are big spenders and the tracks like that. People do not want to do things right because it takes time to do things right. but real simple if you want to stop it, you have club oil and club fuel for heat and feature. and you will find a very competitive race day.

 

[racing promotor]

I think the tracks that are having a problem with the cheating is mainly because they are just looking for kart counts to pay the bills. that is a major problem it always come down to the money. i have never had a problem finding the cheaters in a few decades. but i have been stopped many times. most of the time the big cheaters have big money and they are big spenders and the tracks like that. People do not want to do things right because it takes time to do things right. but real simple if you want to stop it, you have club oil and club fuel for heat and feature. and you will find a very competitive race day.

WRONG ANSWER atleast around here, it's not just tracks it's Series racing as well, Tech is NOT overlooked.

 

[rebsfan4]

I'm a Track owner that created the post and YES I got problems with alky, I also Attend EVERY other event around here and YES they got problems with alky infact that's about all we run,
You must just be a clone hater I guess.

Ken,

You ask for people's opinions. Just because he believes gas is a waste of time, you shouldn't start labeling him in that manner. From what I'm seeing through your responses to those opinions; no one has an answer that you don't refute. Of the two fuels, Methanol has a more consistant moleculor base from which to start. Yes they both have their issues but, gas has a much less constant base from manufacturer to manufacturer. That in itself, is the start to the inconsistant reading problems with testing, outside of sending to a lab. So with my opinion stated.....what is the correct answer you are looking for? It's almost as if you already have something going on in your mind and you are looking for someone to state something similar to see if anyone else is thinking along the same lines. Not trying to be a butt here but, no one seems to be able to answer you in a fashion you are earger to accept. That's what leads me to believe you ALREADY have your own thoughts.

 

[Vintagequest]

Is there anything you actually like about karting.

You hate prep.
You hate engine rules.
You hate weight classes.
You hate payout.

I mean what else is there? Geeeez........

Yeah, like back before folks tried to change karting from a fun hobby to a professional sport.