Box Stock

You're the new technical director...how would you manage the clone class?

You do not have to run NKA insurance to use the rules package and if you read the rules closely tracks are given the option to add or delete some areas of the rules to better address the track, classes and racing customers. The rules are published and may be copied and used free of charge. Rule books may be purchased for tracks and tech. officials or others that would just like to have a copy in their tool box. Print them for free off of the NKA site and keep a copy with you. We have a committee that oversees the rules and any question about a part or it's legality. That part may be boxed up and sent to one of our tech. people working with NKA and you will receive an answer on the part within 10 days of the part arriving to us.This procedure is also covered in the rule package. You will not be left without a decision and you will receive it promptly. We will have a Tech. hot line in the near future for Tech. officials and promoters to call on The weekends or at any time
day or night to get an answer to a problem in Tech. or to verify a rule that you are not sure of while your in the tech. room. NKA is and will work with all the current Karting organizations and only wish to make our sport better.....BM
 
jsstump#70 said:
"Freezing" of the rules for say 3 years is not a good idea. Lets say a "loophole" is found in a particular rule or a crafty builder is able to get "around" a rule that gives a clear advantage. Say it costs a few hundred extra dollars to get these new trick parts or a couple extra hundred in machine work to make the extra power. Do you not want to be able to "fix" this problem when it happens? Why say, "we will fix it in 3 years after the little man has become disgruntled and left." If you, as the governing body, dont want to change the rules for a set time, then dont but at least leave yourself the ability to "govern" your own organization. Good to see you asking for ideas!
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Loopholes outside the intent of the rule are illegal. The dude gets tossed for not being legal. The rules state anything not specifically listed as legal is automatically illegal.
The SCCA does it.
Karters can also.
This is just a general idea don't roast me like it's a finished concept.
 
We race sprint, just bought a 2 cycle kart..will still run clones but gonna try to ween away from them..might as well buy something that goes fast and join the dark side. Yamaha class has the same type of "spec" rules but they have been the same for quite a while and not as much whining going on there.
 
I had NKA insurance from Joe for 7 seasons when I ran the track at Charlestown, never a problem so I would recommend them to any track promoter. The reason I got away from promoting was all the rules changing and never being able to satisfy our patrons mainly because of the rules. Some of our biggest crowds were back in the day when we ran the true box stock class. we had 5 senior classes with 3 jr classes. now this track has as many jr classes as they do seniors and the flatheads are returning each year.
e have ran stock classes for years but this year were building an animal open to quote the phrase of weening ourselve's away from the clones and mislead rules. we will still have a kart for the stock class but it will be ran on a limited schedule.
Keep up the good work Joe I wish you all the success in the world.
Donnie Loweth
 
Joe, I just posted on another thread regarding your rules. I hope my post didn't come across as arrogant in any way. I'm critical of any statistical reference.

Re: your initial post -

There needs to be more competition among the importers. Competition drives costs down.

When decided on rules, I would never consult with suppliers/retailers or engine builders (at first). Why? - (see the next paragraph). Instead, my focus would be on the manufacturer. Find out what their part's variances are, decide on a reasonable alpha level (the point at which parts are determined illegal), then (taken with a grain of salt) consult with builders on the safety and longevity of tolerances for the parts.

When asking builders and suppliers (in the USA) to submit measurements of parts to determine rules, a 'smart business decision' would be to present parts that would promote sales and their submission would not likely represent the real world.

Regardless of rules, the bottom line is that those who are driven to be in the winners circle will continue to throw money around to do so. Those that want to have fun at a reasonable cost would benefit with rules that are designed around the manufacturer rather than the supplier/retailer or builder...

Thanks for reading.

Mike
 
Bob Evans said:
Claim rules and sealed engines are fine for beginner classes. Face it guys, the clone is no longer a beginner class, it is THE class. Beginners classes should be for local tracks and set up as local options, which, of course, is something any track can do at any time.
There is simply no need for a national local option set of rules. Shucks, it's kind of an oxymoron anyway (national local).
The class rules should fit the mindset of the general collective who are serious about running the class. And the update system should be flexible, someone will find a way around a rule and there goes your "carved in stone for 3 years" deal out the window.
There are always unintended consequences with anything.
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Agreed...
 
gregp07 said:
We race sprint, just bought a 2 cycle kart..will still run clones but gonna try to ween away from them..might as well buy something that goes fast and join the dark side. Yamaha class has the same type of "spec" rules but they have been the same for quite a while and not as much whining going on there.
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Yamaha is a good-fun/competitive class and a good step-up from Clones. Parts are expensive (compared 2-clone) and IF you can do ur-own motors, it's a hughs plus! Are you doin 'cans' or 'pipes'? Pipes definitely wake them up!! Good Luck (The NEATest thing....NO valve spring hassles)
 
mike00b said:
Joe, I just posted on another thread regarding your rules. I hope my post didn't come across as arrogant in any way. I'm critical of any statistical reference.

Re: your initial post -

There needs to be more competition among the importers. Competition drives costs down.

When decided on rules, I would never consult with suppliers/retailers or engine builders (at first). Why? - (see the next paragraph). Instead, my focus would be on the manufacturer. Find out what their part's variances are, decide on a reasonable alpha level (the point at which parts are determined illegal), then (taken with a grain of salt) consult with builders on the safety and longevity of tolerances for the parts.

When asking builders and suppliers (in the USA) to submit measurements of parts to determine rules, a 'smart business decision' would be to present parts that would promote sales and their submission would not likely represent the real world.

Regardless of rules, the bottom line is that those who are driven to be in the winners circle will continue to throw money around to do so. Those that want to have fun at a reasonable cost would benefit with rules that are designed around the manufacturer rather than the supplier/retailer or builder...
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Mike....What you say is very true, but let's face it....when this clone thing started out, NOBODY had a flipping clue that the bottom was going too fall out of the economy at the same time and this thing was going too snow-ball in 'profit' for people that 'also' had NO Clue or vision into the (past) future! So...here we are and some people are 'trying' too fix a derailed train. Could I fix-it....Yeahhhh! Would people 'quit' becuz of it....(YEP)!!!! JMO
 
I would not allow more than 500 to win, put a mximum of 30 dollar entry fee, and mandate a 400.00 claim rule ..... to me the claim rule was the key to keeping a 100 dollar engine down around 500.00 from a builder, once that was gone and they started payin big money, the sky was the limit on built pricing......but to late to change that now,,,,,,,,thanks for a budget class that lasted 3 and half weeks lol
 
Key question to answer first .... who is the target competitor for the class? The clone class doesn’t know what it wants to be when it grows up.

For karting to grow, there needs be a starter class. Period. Low entry costs, minimal tech expertise needed. That class MUST exist to bring new blood into the sport. Thought original clone was targeted to this audience. But now people are suggesting the LO206 for this need.

There is also a need for a class for those with mechanical expertise who enjoy tinkering with motors, creativity, engine builders, etc. Thought that was what the Yamaha KT100 class was for. The clone class seems to have evolved into serving this need at a lower cost (at least up front).

Figure out who the clone class belongs to first, then determine rules that make sense for the intended purpose.
 
I'm in complete agreement with Bob Evans. I believe that the rules that work the best are written for "most of the people, most of the time". Sure, tracks could and should experiment with ideas through local option, which is how clone started. At some point, everyone has to agree that they will do it a certain way. In other words, the racers, shops, engine builders, importers, tracks, series, and rules makers agree that they will operate by a set rule for each class of engine. And...they agree only to change this when a real need is discovered. This could be a supply change for any number of reasons (such as natural disaster, war, economic changes), safety issue, or loopholes that are discovered. By doing it this way, consistency and stability are allowed to take hold.

With the clone, the sport hasn't been able to achieve consistency or stability. I think that is where we are with clone. The ideas that have been presented in this thread are great, but they try to work around the real issue; lack of stability. Do you agree with this? Is this the real issue, or is there something else at play?
 
I think you need two classes...BP had the right idea for the most part (more machineing, meth as fuel), I think the name confused some, this should be where most of the money classes. Then have a "pure stock" wienie pipe, drum clutch, 100% pay back, nothing too much more...
 
S&MRacing said:
I think you need two classes...BP had the right idea for the most part (more machineing, meth as fuel), I think the name confused some, this should be where most of the money classes. Then have a "pure stock" wienie pipe, drum clutch, 100% pay back, nothing too much more...
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I agree but the wienie pipe needs to be .750 id or run the big pipe and like we agree, just quit making that the money class, put it in bp or animal/flathead
 
When the clone first went out If Jimmy would of put it on a big pipe left everything else alone, started a create motor program took it national we would not be having any of these conversations.

You ask why Big Pipe, Briggs themselves were trying to kill the F/H the Clone with big pipe would of been faster than the F/h from the get go that would of done it, plus it sounded like a race not someone mowing grass, once it was run with weenie pipe and all of those problems, plus fans got a bad image then it had to prove itself, heck we had em for all but 2 seasons by the stop watch they were faster but you could not tell guy's that, well you could tell them but they would tell ya your crazy, until I had one start shot gun in a F/H money race that the F /H guy's did not even know I had him go out for, after he came from the rear and handed our Hot Shoe a loss then they were believers.

Still say there needs to be 2 set's rules one close to where were at now with the AKRA Pro Rule, and a second set back to more Stock for beginner class, and the second set yes Freeze it for 3 yrs don't touch it.
 
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Seems like the majority here is in agreement that the rules should be frozen or kept as we have them for 2014, at least for 3 years to see how it goes from there, only changing things that are safety related (which i dont see anything close to that) or loopholes (dont see any of those either)
 
I think it is a worthy goal to have, and deserves some real discussion behind the scenes and out in the open (such as here in the forums) to see how we would make it work. We're going to move forward into 2014 with a good set of rules for the clone platform (they are a sticky here in the clone forum). We'll see what the feedback is from the tech barns and then proceed from there.
 
I think one of the reasons there still appears too be such dis-array (improving) in Clone, or let's just say could help it, would be too have a National level agenda. As it is, it seems like virually every track in the 'union' has their-own version of 'rules'. If there were a 'sectional...regional....national' agenda for everybody to shoot for, the rules most likely would be cast-in-brass like all other recognized class programs. JMO
 
Weddle Racing said:
Seems like the majority here is in agreement that the rules should be frozen or kept as we have them for 2014, at least for 3 years to see how it goes from there, only changing things that are safety related (which i dont see anything close to that) or loopholes (dont see any of those either)
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IF....the importers were TRULY in control of the manurfacture(s), I'd 'buy' ur id! However....It still 'appears are Not! JMO
 
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