Box Stock

You're the new technical director...how would you manage the clone class?

three engines.....stock, modified and unlimited (each with a standard set of rules) and three weight classes...lite, medium and heavy. too many classes with the same motor and too confusing when the rules are either too technical for us backyard bandits or too much jibber-jabber when all the rule should say is "you can't do this".....

for example....don't go into all the techno-babble....just say it like it is! like "you can't run a stainless steel valve of any size in any engine in this class" instead of saying "no stainless steel valves measuring 24.5mm or larger can be installed" (this is paraphrasing, I'm just using it as an example).....either you say you can use stock sized stainless valves only or you can't use them at all...my third grade education didn't go that far into 1+1=2 so measurements can get confusing...same as rules....I've read some that you'd need an engineering degree from MIT to understand what you can and can't do!

KISS is.....keep is stupidly simple....
 
If it is not clearly stated in these rules that it can be done, it cannot.


Any production change by manufacturer(s) causing any part not to conform to the stated specifications will be subject to a decision by the Sanctioning body, as to whether the component will be considered legal and be permitted for use.
 
i agree....but one thing that so many on here believe is that "if it's not in the rules, then it's legal".....so wrong and so bad for all of us. Disclaimers need to be front and center explaining that jsut becasue it's not in the rules doesn't make it legal to use. it's thinking like this that has made a mockery of the rules as they are becuase too many things are falling in the cracks and then "if it ain't" theory comes into play, then additional rules are made, the rule book doesn't get updated right away or the word doesn't get out and you end up being dq'ed....

jsut sayin.....get the rules simple to undertand, very clear on what is and isn't allowed, get them online and keep them updated....then ask how would you manage a clone class.....
 
not arguing don, but that's what is open for interpretation and usually winds up being a sore spot for everyone. in the spirit of fairness, you abide by these rules; the intent of which is to keep all competitors equal....yet some posts i've read on here where spirit and intent is taken to extremes and thus arguments are born. a simple disclaimer right from the start that if it's not written in the rules, then it's not legal would go a long way in keeping the rules simple. with spirit and intent, you are relying on the fairness and competitiveness to keep things in check. too many times, i've read on here that so and so used this and got dq'ed and yet it wasn't in the rules and so it's not illegal. then that same person throws spirit and intent back at you (not you personally!) and says that the rules don't cover this area, so he's keeping with the spirit and intent thought process. this is what's confusing and leads to arguments. while spirit and intent are good ideas in theory, in practice it just doesn't hold things in check. i highly respect and value your wisdom and knowledge, so i'm not trying to argue with you! :)

btw....i was up in your neck of the woods last week (philly) !! nice place to visit, but the weather was COLD!! i think i'll stay in Georgia!! :eek:
 
I would say set the rules to the 2013 BP rules and set a moratorium on them like Brian said. You can have a legit 14.5+ hp racing engine for less than the old flattys had escalated to. Lots of guys can build that engine themselves. I think folks would be more likely to spend some money if they knew it was gonna be competitive for more than 6 months. Guys could update their AKRA stockers for just a little cash and have more motor and be able to race it for awhile. Back when we ran flatherads, for the most part, the rules stayed the same enough you could run your motor year after year. In my eyes, thats the biggest difference.
 
Mikey56, Not taking anything personally. And yes, it is cold here. I hate hunting deer in the cold!!! At my age, I am giving up earlier in the day than I used to. I hear what you are saying and although I wasn't going to post to the topic, there have been some things that have gotten my attention. So let me address this issue like this: The clone was designed as a race package for a group of backyard racers to have some fun. Quite simply, it caught on from there and began to grow into a replacement engine for the Flatty. Now what I mean by that is karters realized they could go racing on an engine that was significantly less expensive than the current ( then ) animal package. One of the very first people to introduce the H.F. engine was a guy that I haven't seen on here for a long time. His screen name was "Cooter" He actually had pictures of he and his group of back yard racers that he sent me. From there the engine was discovered by someone else that realized there could be something going on here that would be beneficial to the sport of karting. So the Box Stock Project engine was developed by Jim Sims and shipped to the U.S. For a year or so, there were actually tracks that would not allow any engine that was NOT a BSP identified engine. That became controversial because karters were saying " wait a minute, the rules say any 6.5 engine" So tracks began to loosen up and start allowing the blue Harbor Freight. Now, it was disturbing to many that the H.F. engine was winning many races over the yellow bsp. It was discovered that the head on the H.F. was a much better flowing unit so there was a rule put on the valves being sunk below the surface. This was to my knowledge the very first attempt to place a rule on the engine that tried to equate to fairness. As time goes on, there are more rules that need to be implemented to keep the playing fields even because we all know that where there is a race there will be competition. Competition breeds ingenuity. Ingenuity breeds rules!!! So where are we at right now. Unfortunately, I do not feel we are where we need to be. Until we get a set of rules that will allow us to take our engine to any track in the U.S. and compete like the flatty was, we will continue to struggle and disagree about a rules package. Even with the rules I worked on with the committee, there are, in my opinion, still measurements that I am thinking need to be put in place. It is a situation of " time will tell". I see it coming but not sure when. I would love to see WKA, IKF, NKA and AKRA work as a team towards uniformity of the rules. Until that time we must rely on karters to conduct themselves with some integrity as to the implimentation of honest and fair play.
 
Dyno Don, instead of "Spirit and Intent" which is sorta vague and open for interpretation, why not say definitely "If it's not specifically said to be legal, it is not." This would eliminate the "Well, it didn't say I couldn't do it" argument.

Part of the problem is the manufacturer making changes on the fly instead of making a consistent product ( a 1970 FH is not much different from a 2013 FH).
Nutty idea, but could AKRA/NKA/WKA make up a set of specs for an engine and have one Chinese manufacturer make that exact engine for karting. Everybody runs that one with +/- tolerances.
 
I Really don't think that the Chinese could really give a ship about U.S. karting rules......... Shucks, They ALREADY own this country
 
Don there was a group of us long before Cooter, they got the idea from J&M raceway
But before any mention at all on Bob's the HF was being ran, and now those same people are switching to box stock Pred's
Yes thats me
Me_zps97b5d718.jpg
 
I'm all for working with other organizations for rule consistency...as long as it is a two way street. We created TrakBOOK to service the tracks in our system that wanted a set of rules without the typical strings attached. We didn't do it to take over the world. So a 'coming together' is certainly a viable option that we're totally open to explore. If we could agree on performance related items, ignore the non-performance items for now, and establish a good set of rules across all organizations, it would go a long way towards stability. Not really why I started this thread, but a good idea.

I don't think we can go, as a group, to China for one engine. Interesting concept that would likely implode.

Kart43 brings up a good idea, but it would have to be followed by all organizations. We're certainly of that mindset, by the way. That's what I would very much like to see. Too often new 'parts' are put into the supply stream, and that causes issues.
 
The people that started this craze are getting left out, and they will then find another engine to suit them.
It already started here and in KY the 206 will be the budget class and when this happens the rule makers can sit back and say we dropped the ball, we fixed it for the money racers, but we let the weekend warriors, the guys that keep the lights on at the track have slipped through the crack
 
astrowrench said:
I Really don't think that the Chinese could really give a ship about U.S. karting rules......... Shucks, They ALREADY own this country
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They don't care about model trains either, but I've got a friend who gets them to make exact replica model trains for him to sell.
They'll make kart motors for $$ if you get them the specs.
 
XXX#40 said:
The people that started this craze are getting left out, and they will then find another engine to suit them.
It already started here and in KY the 206 will be the budget class and when this happens the rule makers can sit back and say we dropped the ball, we fixed it for the money racers, but we let the weekend warriors, the guys that keep the lights on at the track have slipped through the crack
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A HUGE A-men too that...(sad but true!
 
don...thanks for your input! what you say is right on the mark. all I want in the racing world is a decent chance at placing and maybe gain a win or two along the way. with all the different classes, different rules, different air in the tires and face shield up or down....it gets confusing for all of us...but with that being said, it's folks like you and screamer and youngengines that go a long way in helping to define kart racing and to bring as much parity as you can.......we will always have the nay sayers, the rule benders and breakers and those that will do everything they can to circumvent the rules... all for gaining the win no matter what... sometimes I think that racing for fun got lost in all the shuffle. but I still race for fun...it's me all alone on the track singin, shoutin, yelling, cussin, cryin...and just making a whole lot of fun all by myself........

don, thanks for you input and thanks for just being you...a all around good guy!!

screamer...check your pm.....
 
theres only 1 way to keep a de-railing train on the track... slow it down!!! if you didn't make changes each year to allow more n more it would be solved... the rules change every couple months and they should never change!!! you want to make it an even playing field for all from joe to bob... then stick to 1 rule set and run... I get the spec cam... I get the spec header... spec carb... so on... but you guys have to come to a point where you see some little change from one motor to the next isn't a reason to start over!!! 95% of the motor is spec... the only better you can get is to have 1 builder build every motor... witch gives you the 206...
 
but again, the LO206 is not the answer. it's only one option and an expensive one at that. the idea that it's a no-touchie motor is not true by any stretch of the imagination. those that put all the time and work into making it a single source, affordable, sealed motor are kidding only themselves. you might like to think that those seals mean that everyone is equal, but i can garantee that someone out there is putting just as much effort into finding a way to break into that motor to gain any advantage that they can, if they haven't already. you might think that sealing a motor means that when it crosses the scales and the tech man say "yep! all seals there! you is the winner!"...... right..... and IF it was a perfect world, then we wouldn't have to hire techmen to make sure that the rules are enforced.

the 206 is not the answer......clear, concise, easy to follow and easy to enforce rules....that will bring racers out and make the sport more enjoyable. by the same token....if you catch someone cheating, you have to make sure that EVERYONE knows who, want and how they were cheating. keeping it secret only reenforces the belief that some get away with anything they want to do and it's the backyard budget racer that is the cheater.....
 
mikey56 said:
but again, the LO206 is not the answer. it's only one option and an expensive one at that. the idea that it's a no-touchie motor is not true by any stretch of the imagination. those that put all the time and work into making it a single source, affordable, sealed motor are kidding only themselves. you might like to think that those seals mean that everyone is equal, but i can garantee that someone out there is putting just as much effort into finding a way to break into that motor to gain any advantage that they can, if they haven't already. you might think that sealing a motor means that when it crosses the scales and the tech man say "yep! all seals there! you is the winner!"...... right..... and IF it was a perfect world, then we wouldn't have to hire techmen to make sure that the rules are enforced.

the 206 is not the answer......clear, concise, easy to follow and easy to enforce rules....that will bring racers out and make the sport more enjoyable. by the same token....if you catch someone cheating, you have to make sure that EVERYONE knows who, want and how they were cheating. keeping it secret only reenforces the belief that some get away with anything they want to do and it's the backyard budget racer that is the cheater.....
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um the 206 has a 6100 rev limiter in them, so anything you do will be null and void and at 600.00 race ready its appearing to be the better option for budget guys
 
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