Box Stock

You're the new technical director...how would you manage the clone class?

XXX#40 said:
um the 206 has a 6100 rev limiter in them, so anything you do will be null and void and at 600.00 race ready its appearing to be the better option for budget guys
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Ya, but what can I do to the engine to make it get up to that 6100 quicker than the other guy so I can get a jump on the starts and a better pull off the corner??
 
the 206 is not the answer......clear, concise, easy to follow and easy to enforce rules....that will bring racers out and make the sport more enjoyable. by the same token....if you catch someone cheating, you have to make sure that EVERYONE knows who, want and how they were cheating. keeping it secret only reenforces the belief that some get away with anything they want to do and it's the backyard budget racer that is the cheater.....
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I'd have to disagree with almost everything you said in your post (including what I didn't choose to quote.) But let me address this part of your quote anyhow -- Yes, we need clear, concise, easy to follow and enforce rules. The LO206 has exactly that! Including that they have remained virtually unchanged since it's inception.

The LO206 IS bringing out more racers and IS addressing the desires of those who have become disgruntled with all the constant rules changes and increases in cost to the clones. For a short while in their early years, the clone faithful could hang their hat on their engine costing less...I think we can all agree that those days are long gone now. Can we all just concede that much as fact in the great clone vs LO206 debate?

Now, addressing the "cheaters" and labeling them publicly as such. It appears that this is already a common practice. Post race engine tech regularly discovers illegal springs (and other infractions) in the clone classes and in the results you see exactly the name of the "cheater." Should they also be tarred and feathered? Is this the direction we want to go? Labeling anyone a "cheater" with a quite less than perfect tech method (even by an impartial tech inspector) doesn't seem appropriate to me. I've built and teched enough clones to know that the whole spring debacle is too subjective. Likewise, cam lift measured off of the spring retainer (even with a second chance by rotating the retainer) is gray at best. I see racers tossed in the tech barn because their springs were teched in temperatures of 50* while that engine was likely assembled by the builder at 70*. Don't you think 20* of ambient air temperature makes a difference in measuring spring tension and height with the stone age tech tools that (by the way are the only approved tools for the job) we have to use? Most, if not all, engine builders have Intercomp, Longacre, etc QUALITY digital spring pressure gauges, yet they are not approved tools for tech purposes. And at $300 for the required tool (that may be required to be updated at any point in time - as has already happened), the current "approved" tool is hardly a bargain. Look, every engine builder is looking to get as close to the rules (without going over) as any other. It's called competition. When you're in business, you have to provide your customer with the very best that you can build -- that means pushing every limit. If you don't, you're leaving performance on the table and not doing your very best for that customer. After a while, the customer keeps getting beat by engines from another builder who pushes the limits a bit more, yielding more performance, resulting in loss of a customer.

The clone engine is simply another blueprinted engine class. Take the whole current spring tech method out and enforce one with length and wire diameter similar to the flathead rules. You'll have to add a billet rod, and you might as well allow overbores while you're at it. The people want a blueprinted race engine -- give them that. Those that want more dependability, lower cost, etc etc, have the LO206 as a viable option. As long as there are blueprint classes available, the engine builders won't need to be messing with seals, etc on the 206 -- there's not much meat on the bone anyway with the tight set of rules in place already. Don, and others, take a strong look at the LO206 and tell me where you're going to find a bunch of power withing the rule set? It's just not there. Tinker all you want with it, and the return on investment is just not there. Even working the gray areas you will be hard pressed to charge the customer enough for your time to make a minimal gain worthwhile.
We still need blueprint classes and the engine builders in our sport. What is missing is the entry level classes and lower cost classes again. (The clone is neither at this point.) By the way, this is nothing new -- this occurs in karting (oval and sprint) every couple of years like a constant cycle. The flathead began that way, the Yamaha KT100 began that way, etc etc. Today, it's the clone engine. Tomorrow it might be the Predator. As long as there are multiple sources for an engine and inadequate rules package from the onset, whatever engine is next introduced will undoubtedly be "built up" into a full blueprinted race engine. I really like the LO206 because it addresses these problems. I don't know if a crate engine is the answer to all of karting's current woes, but it sure seems like a step in the right direction at this juncture in our sport.

Thanks,
Brian
 
Looks like we've veered a little from the initial discussion point. The 206 is a great engine, and has its positives. But...it's not a clone and that's what we're discussing here.

The point of the thread isn't to look backwards and point fingers but to take notice of where it is now, and to allow anyone to put their two cents in. We've certainly had that. The consistent answer that comes in is either freeze rules, or to slow down the changes.

So how does that happen?

One of the main issues that I've seen with the clone is that the rules are reactionary. In other words, rule makers have reacted to a change, and not instituted the change. So the supply chain (MFG, Importers, aftermarket) is driving the changes and then the rule makers had to adjust, or have been willing to adjust. I think for the clone to continue long term, that has to reverse. If we are able to reverse it, then 'freezing' or at least allowing for minimal changes is much easier to manage.

Joe Janowski
NKA, Inc.
 
mikey56 said:
but again, the LO206 is not the answer. it's only one option and an expensive one at that. the idea that it's a no-touchie motor is not true by any stretch of the imagination. those that put all the time and work into making it a single source, affordable, sealed motor are kidding only themselves. you might like to think that those seals mean that everyone is equal, but i can garantee that someone out there is putting just as much effort into finding a way to break into that motor to gain any advantage that they can, if they haven't already. you might think that sealing a motor means that when it crosses the scales and the tech man say "yep! all seals there! you is the winner!"...... right..... and IF it was a perfect world, then we wouldn't have to hire techmen to make sure that the rules are enforced.

the 206 is not the answer......clear, concise, easy to follow and easy to enforce rules....that will bring racers out and make the sport more enjoyable. by the same token....if you catch someone cheating, you have to make sure that EVERYONE knows who, want and how they were cheating. keeping it secret only reenforces the belief that some get away with anything they want to do and it's the backyard budget racer that is the cheater.....
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'Flagrant' cheating sould be dealt with like 'softball'.....(2) strikes and ur out....Permanently! (If, there were too be a 'Common' agenda!) Local tracks wudn't want it becuz it would hender their cash-flow while not viewing the (+) side. The '206' wud help 'minimize' the evil's but certainly not 'fix-it' for sure. I STILL think the the promoter's need too move-the-money 'UP' and leave the 'stocker's' alone!! I wud be willing too bet a $100 that if I were to offer a $1000 payout/$500-to-Win Series that starts in 60days and there are NO customers at this point....'true' racers wud come out of the wood-work! jmo
 
DynoDon said:
Ya, but what can I do to the engine to make it get up to that 6100 quicker than the other guy so I can get a jump on the starts and a better pull off the corner??
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Don you may be able to do that, but you may not too.
I'm saying there needs to be a CHEAP class, or karts will revert back to the out of the box predators and every track will have it own rules, heck maybe thats what needs to happen, guys ran in large classes, and any given night someone different could win, the claim rule worked for that class
 
Joe Janowski said:
Looks like we've veered a little from the initial discussion point. The 206 is a great engine, and has its positives. But...it's not a clone and that's what we're discussing here.

The point of the thread isn't to look backwards and point fingers but to take notice of where it is now, and to allow anyone to put their two cents in. We've certainly had that. The consistent answer that comes in is either freeze rules, or to slow down the changes.

So how does that happen?

One of the main issues that I've seen with the clone is that the rules are reactionary. In other words, rule makers have reacted to a change, and not instituted the change. So the supply chain (MFG, Importers, aftermarket) is driving the changes and then the rule makers had to adjust, or have been willing to adjust. I think for the clone to continue long term, that has to reverse. If we are able to reverse it, then 'freezing' or at least allowing for minimal changes is much easier to manage.

Joe Janowski
NKA, Inc.
Click to expand...

Joe....if you/we could 'reverse' it....'Managing' the Chinese would be a Good starting point cuz the tail wagging the dog doesn't work very well. However, it is GOOD too get 'Persons' in your position too 'Come Out' and ask what is needed! "Dyno-Don" is getting 'straight A's'.....credit's too! :)
 
i still hold (just for the sake of arguement) that the LO206 isn't the answer. It's all based on cost becuase that's really what we're talking about here. I can buy a predator or BSP for $140.00, a cam (cl-2) for $50.00, a header for $35.00, and a top plate assembly w/fuel pump ($35.00).....and still be way under $600.00. although i'd love to be able to buy one engine and be as competitive as the next guy and turn it back to a setup and driver class, but we all know that ain't gonna happen. so the best we can do is to get those clear, concise rules and enforce them....but i read on another post about the constant additions to the rules that keeps everyone guessing. this is one problem that has to be addressed!! one rule book for 2 years....no additions/subtractions/modifications or otherwise to the goldern rule for that period of time...this wil go a long way in bring things back in line so that we can all race...

just sayin!!!



:)
 
mikey56 said:
i still hold (just for the sake of arguement) that the LO206 isn't the answer. It's all based on cost becuase that's really what we're talking about here. I can buy a predator or BSP for $140.00, a cam (cl-2) for $50.00, a header for $35.00, and a top plate assembly w/fuel pump ($35.00).....and still be way under $600.00. although i'd love to be able to buy one engine and be as competitive as the next guy and turn it back to a setup and driver class, but we all know that ain't gonna happen. so the best we can do is to get those clear, concise rules and enforce them....but i read on another post about the constant additions to the rules that keeps everyone guessing. this is one problem that has to be addressed!! one rule book for 2 years....no additions/subtractions/modifications or otherwise to the goldern rule for that period of time...this wil go a long way in bring things back in line so that we can all race...

just sayin!!!



:)
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Your figure are pretty off

BSP engine $155.00+15 shipping $170.00
Cam $50.00(Not a Dyno in engine)
Flywheel $100.00+shipping $110.00(Arc billet)
Blueprinted carb $59.00+ $ 62.00
Air filter adapter $13.50
Air filter $10.00
Top plate kit $18.95
Fuel pump $17.50
Chain guard $24.00
Header $64.95
Muffler $35.00
So we are $579.90 add in additional shipping and you right at 600.00

This is just bolting an engine together, sure you can go thru and make sure the pieces you have are the best they can be, but it wont be like hand picking through bunches of parts to find the+/- Min. where the advantage would be the min, nor searching for the +/- Max. part where is needed to make the most HP.
And then will you be under powered? who know's?
My guess is you will be
 
XXX#40 said:
Your figure are pretty off

BSP engine $155.00+15 shipping $170.00
Cam $50.00(Not a Dyno in engine)
Flywheel $100.00+shipping $110.00(Arc billet)
Blueprinted carb $59.00+ $ 62.00
Air filter adapter $13.50
Air filter $10.00
Top plate kit $18.95
Fuel pump $17.50
Chain guard $24.00
Header $64.95
Muffler $35.00
So we are $579.90 add in additional shipping and you right at 600.00

This is just bolting an engine together, sure you can go thru and make sure the pieces you have are the best they can be, but it wont be like hand picking through bunches of parts to find the+/- Min. where the advantage would be the min, nor searching for the +/- Max. part where is needed to make the most HP.
And then will you be under powered? who know's?
My guess is you will be
Click to expand...
Looks and sounds like we need too see whats Best w/ a Drag Race! (I bet my driver cuts a better light!) :)
 
I stand corrected....I was assuming that you wouldn't have to buy everything brand new, that you had several pieces that you wouldn't have to spend money on. But, looking online, i see where the engine is $579.00 (fastermotors.com and stoutracing.com). But your list details things like the flywheel...only if the rules make you have a billet one, blue printed carb (does it absolutely have to be? no....)....see, your adding things that most racers already have...like a clutch, heatshield/clutch guard...things like that. Not arguing mind you, but the answer isn't strictly one engine. most racers, think budget minded here, can't drop $600.00 for one engine at once. Like me, a bunch of racers nationwide, start out with a basic engine and over time, build it up as money becomes available. With a "run this engine or you can't race", your limiting who can race and who can't. looking at it realistically, most racers will give up and go possuum hunting instead. most racers have families and unless they are totally stupid, will spend the money on them first and then what's left is for racing....

but this is getting way away from the main topic of "You're the new technical director...how would you manage the clone class?" First and foremost, i would develop a single set of rules that will be set in stone for a period of at least two years...no modifications, additions, deletions, rewrites or "you need to change or i won't race" crybabies. Might not go over too well at the beginning but once you have uniformity and consistency, then racers will see that it's a for real class and they will come to see....and once seen, they will want to race....it's natural for all of us. But, if i was the guy writing them, then it would be ONE class....one engine (even if uit was the LO206), one weight, two heat races, one feature.....then after making sure that the class is successful, then and only then would i branch it out for different weights and maybe ages...like rookies, juniors and seniors (fur us older guys!).....but even then each class would have limits on what could be done to the engines...wee have enough plate classes that the young guns could race...these rules and conditions would strictly be for this one class.....
 
XXX#40 said:
Your figure are pretty off

BSP engine $155.00+15 shipping $170.00
Cam $50.00(Not a Dyno in engine)
Flywheel $100.00+shipping $110.00(Arc billet)
Blueprinted carb $59.00+ $ 62.00
Air filter adapter $13.50
Air filter $10.00
Top plate kit $18.95
Fuel pump $17.50
Chain guard $24.00
Header $64.95
Muffler $35.00
So we are $579.90 add in additional shipping and you right at 600.00

This is just bolting an engine together, sure you can go thru and make sure the pieces you have are the best they can be, but it wont be like hand picking through bunches of parts to find the+/- Min. where the advantage would be the min, nor searching for the +/- Max. part where is needed to make the most HP.
And then will you be under powered? who know's?
My guess is you will be
Click to expand...
http://www.arcracing.com/servlet/the-20/Box-Stock-BSP-6.5/Detail

If you already have a flywheel- 235
If you want a new flywheel- 330
 
I call BS on the "most racers start with a basic engine and upgrade." listed above. IMO, most engine builders could probably tell you that plenty of people are buying $6-7-8-$1100 clones off the shelf and a racer would only have the "extra" bolt on parts if you've already been racing. I think this whole discussion is being approached from the wrong direction. These motors aren't rocket science. Set the specs first, and then allow any overhead cam engine that meets the (relatively narrow) spec. Set valve sizes, set valve material, set bore and overbore tolerances, set popup, set intake bore diameter, set cam profile tolerances, set piston weight min, and set fuel spec and flywheel weight and let people free to bring whatever they want that meets the spec. The only way to eliminate cheating is to set a spec and enforce it. If you're not willing to set the spec, or you're not willing to have certified, trained, competent tech officials who are impartial teching 'em, than you might as well run "stock appearing" cuz that's what you'll get.
 
I think the 'price' difference between the Clone and 206 is a 'push' and is a 'eenie-meenie-miney-moe' too the buyer that (if they've done their homework) will be swayed by their local track(s)....more often than not. Therefore, if I am a track owner/operator, i'm going too look at what's 'best' for my bottom-line of which sud be Best for my customer(s).
 
I called no BS on this one Ted!! lol!! my meaning was a start up racer like I was last year....I paid $150 for my motors, did a little to them last year and upgraded this year to stock appearing. your taking it for granted that everyone will be going to an engine builder and buying off the shelf. this I think is a misnomer...you might think that they do, but I'd be willing to bet that the average Saturday night budget, backyard, low buck racing team doesn't have the smack to buy off the shelf. that's not to say that they don't, I'm speaking about your average racer.......

and screamer is right...a track promoter who is worth his salt will be going with what the majority of the regulars that keep his track open want...
 
Mikey---no offense intended. I'm a low-buck racer myself....but there's a lack of mechanics these days -- people who 20 yrs. ago would tinker with their own stuff in the garage to build their own motor now don't have the time or knowledge to do so....and are too busy rolling tires to do so! :) Might be interesting to start a new thread with a poll.
 
none taken ted....i'm one of those backyard builders too. granted, i build my own motors, but i send the parts out for any machine work.........around here you talk about rolling your own, the cops will be all over you for smokin them funny smellin cigarettes! :eek:

look under the general category for "backyard engine builders"....lets see what and who posts!!
 
mikey56 said:
none taken ted....i'm one of those backyard builders too. granted, i build my own motors, but i send the parts out for any machine work.........around here you talk about rolling your own, the cops will be all over you for smokin them funny smellin cigarettes! :eek:

look under the general category for "backyard engine builders"....lets see what and who posts!!
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My shop is in my back yard....does that count? Ted is right about '2-days' lack of mechcanic's and it's no surprise! Begin that our education process has degradated to computers, nobody has knowledge of what a crescent wrench is, much <how 2use it! AAAHHHH....never mind, we won't go-there!! (Arrive and Drive! Gotta LOVE dip-pocket's)
 
And you really want the racers input? Neck.....is there any wonder why there are so many rule changes. Just look at all the differing opinions. And they're all the best one bye the way. Just ask the guy who wrote it. Heck....it can't even be kept on subject because someone has the best answer to it all and it doesn't even involve a clone. Lol.

Just make the rules package and those of us who are there to implement it will do the job at hand.
 
Real racers will race whatever the rules, wherever the race takes place.

Everyone else will **** and moan about how its not fair because they cant afford it.

Racing isnt cheap....I dont understand why we keep trying to make it cheap. I want to race NASCAR....but you dont see me calling Mike Helton saying its BS that I cant afford it....

Sometimes, you need to bite the bullet and say "I cant afford to do this on this level". A good BSP clone is $700 (give or take a couple of hundred). Thousands of dollars in tires, tachs, clutches, parts, tow rig, fuel, entry fees, and TIME (time is money), and everyone wants to complain about why we spend $700 on an engine instead of $200? We ran an indoor race last weekend that required a weenie pipe and a shoe clutch...cost us about $150 to buy that stuff since we normally run big pipe open clutch. Based off most of the responses here, we would have stomped our feet and whined about it. Instead, we bought the stuff, conformed to the rules, and went out and raced. Problem solved

We are our own worst enemy. It has always been that way, and always will be that way. Cheap racing is an oxymoron. Just like cheap golf, cheap baseball, cheap anything that involves competition doesnt exist. You dont see Jamie Knopf, Tod Miller, Austin Yarborough, Donnie Nall, etc participating in these discussions, because frankly, they dont care. Set the rules, we will conform, lets race. Everyone else wants a "cheap" aspect catered to them.

Engine builders are an integral part of the karting economy....can you imagine the hit karting would take if we pushed engine builders out of the equation? They do more then make money off of racers on engines....they sell karts, tires, preps, setup consulting, they sponsor races, give back at banquets, etc etc. They are as important to karting as anything else
 
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