You're the new technical director...how would you manage the clone class?

You dont see Jamie Knopf, Tod Miller, Austin Yarborough, Donnie Nall, etc participating in these discussions, because frankly, they dont care.

Well, they don't care because they're sponsored by shops and race for basically free. I'm not saying they didn't pay their dues, but they don't really have skin in the game because they're not the "common man racer." I'm not against engine builders making a profit. But you're right that racers beat themselves. The whole reason that clone rules are an issue is because racers wouldn't leave 'em alone. And engine builders are going to take racers' money and do whatever the racer wants. Tracks are to blame too because they won't unify on one set of rules. And with that, I'm out of this discussion...
 
Well, they don't care because they're sponsored by shops and race for basically free

Says who?

Tracks are to blame too because they won't unify on one set of rules. And with that, I'm out of this discussion...

Why should a track have to follow a unified set of national rules? What if it doesn't work for the racers in that area.

ONE set of national unified rules is alot like Obamacare....they think its going to work for everyone, when in reality it wont.
 
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real racers will race whatever the rules, wherever the race takes place.

Everyone else will **** and moan about how its not fair because they cant afford it.

Racing isnt cheap....i dont understand why we keep trying to make it cheap. I want to race nascar....but you dont see me calling mike helton saying its bs that i cant afford it....

Sometimes, you need to bite the bullet and say "i cant afford to do this on this level". A good bsp clone is $700 (give or take a couple of hundred). Thousands of dollars in tires, tachs, clutches, parts, tow rig, fuel, entry fees, and time (time is money), and everyone wants to complain about why we spend $700 on an engine instead of $200? We ran an indoor race last weekend that required a weenie pipe and a shoe clutch...cost us about $150 to buy that stuff since we normally run big pipe open clutch. Based off most of the responses here, we would have stomped our feet and whined about it. Instead, we bought the stuff, conformed to the rules, and went out and raced. Problem solved

we are our own worst enemy. It has always been that way, and always will be that way. Cheap racing is an oxymoron. Just like cheap golf, cheap baseball, cheap anything that involves competition doesnt exist. You dont see jamie knopf, tod miller, austin yarborough, donnie nall, etc participating in these discussions, because frankly, they dont care. Set the rules, we will conform, lets race. Everyone else wants a "cheap" aspect catered to them.

Engine builders are an integral part of the karting economy....can you imagine the hit karting would take if we pushed engine builders out of the equation? They do more then make money off of racers on engines....they sell karts, tires, preps, setup consulting, they sponsor races, give back at banquets, etc etc. They are as important to karting as anything else
 
Real racers will race whatever the rules, wherever the race takes place.

Everyone else will **** and moan about how its not fair because they cant afford it.

Racing isnt cheap....I dont understand why we keep trying to make it cheap. I want to race NASCAR....but you dont see me calling Mike Helton saying its BS that I cant afford it....

Sometimes, you need to bite the bullet and say "I cant afford to do this on this level". A good BSP clone is $700 (give or take a couple of hundred). Thousands of dollars in tires, tachs, clutches, parts, tow rig, fuel, entry fees, and TIME (time is money), and everyone wants to complain about why we spend $700 on an engine instead of $200? We ran an indoor race last weekend that required a weenie pipe and a shoe clutch...cost us about $150 to buy that stuff since we normally run big pipe open clutch. Based off most of the responses here, we would have stomped our feet and whined about it. Instead, we bought the stuff, conformed to the rules, and went out and raced. Problem solved

We are our own worst enemy. It has always been that way, and always will be that way. Cheap racing is an oxymoron. Just like cheap golf, cheap baseball, cheap anything that involves competition doesnt exist. You dont see Jamie Knopf, Tod Miller, Austin Yarborough, Donnie Nall, etc participating in these discussions, because frankly, they dont care. Set the rules, we will conform, lets race. Everyone else wants a "cheap" aspect catered to them.

Engine builders are an integral part of the karting economy....can you imagine the hit karting would take if we pushed engine builders out of the equation? They do more then make money off of racers on engines....they sell karts, tires, preps, setup consulting, they sponsor races, give back at banquets, etc etc. They are as important to karting as anything else

Amen brother...
.AMEN!!!!!
 
You're the new technical director...how would you manage the clone class?
Joe had the best rule of all, enact the rules and don't change them for a set period of time. Like them or not they are the same for everybody!!
 
I'm just curious how many of you would answer the following question;

You've just been hired as a technical director of a sanctioning body. Many of the tracks that use your rules use the clone engine. What would you do to stabilize the clone class so that it can grow for the next 5 to 10 years?

There isn't a right or wrong answer here. I'm sure that a lot of you have excellent ideas, and we'd love to hear them.

Joe Janowski
NKA, Inc.

Just curious Joe.....Have you 'found' the answer yet? (I'm still looking for 'the-pot-of-gold'....also! :)
 
"Why should a track have to follow a unified set of national rules? What if it doesn't work for the racers in that area." .....doesn't this smack you in the head as what WKA and AKRA are trying to do?

and don't equate "cheap racing" and "we don't want to spend any money and yet race"...... no racing is cheap by any means....what cheap racing is really all about is controlling costs. it's not that anyone what's cheap racing...that only leads to disaster. what we want it lower racing costs. some you will never get any lower, but some parts that cost the maker $10, is costing racers $50 (that's only an example!). what we all want isn't cheap racing, but lower back pocket costs.

one answer may be a set of unified or universal rules. another may be consistent and constant rules. ones that won't change for X years and ones that don't change because daddy warbucks says change them or else he'll take his money somewhere else. and i'm not saying this happens, but the implications are there that it does.

who knows? jpm karting said it right "real racers will race whatever the rules, wherever the race takes place." he's exactly right....but all we really want is more cost control so that we all can afford to race!
 
Sure have. The answer is that there is no answer, just a moving target that has many moving parts to it.

Let me explain...

The popularity of an engine has a number of factors to it; price, availability, rules/tech, engine builder support, promoter interest, stability over time, geography, history, brand, ease of use, aftermarket, industry interest, etc. The order of those needs will be different for a local track (or actually a group of local tracks), and a regional or national series.

For example, the local tracks are going to be more focused on geography, price, ease of use, availability, and stability over time. This keeps them in line with other tracks in their area (necessary) and makes it easy for racers to invest in this for the long haul. The others on the list are in play as well, but aren’t as important.

Most, if not all, of the ideas in this thread have been experiments done at the local level. Typically we find that in a geographical area, you’ll have a large primary track that tends to experiment initially with a new package, finds what tends to work, and then sticks with that until they need to change. Then the satellite tracks that follow what the primary track does in that geographic area will follow suit (more or less). This is smart, and has worked for the entire history of karting, until you try and scale.

By scale, I mean start appearing on the regional or national levels. When an engine package reaches a tipping point, it becomes ‘important’ and you’ll find it appearing on the regional and national series. When it hits this level, you’ll see that the needs change drastically as it needs to have its act together. This has been the inherent problem with clone. It hasn't scaled well.

The regional/national series is more likely going to need to focus on vetted rules, thorough and consistent tech, engine builder support, industry interest, promoter interest, aftermarket, etc. Price, availability, ease of use, and geography are still involved, but aren’t as important once an engine reaches the regional/national level.

Clone is where it is now because the rules and tech didn’t scale while the other factors did. The industry is involved, the promoters are promoting, the engine builders are supporting, the aftermarket is engaging, but the rules and tech were lacking. This is the part that needs fixing, and nobody was fixing it. The rules were not scalable and tech at regional/national events was (and still may be depending on the rules package) a complete shot in the dark rife with judgement calls.

So if I was the new Technical Director, this is what I would do…

I would move away from Box Stock/OEM, and establish measurements that can be applied to all of the clone engines, in a way treating them as one engine.

I would use those measurements to develop a technical compliance program that can be implemented at regional/national series events, as well as local events should they want to do that, thereby eliminating judgement calls in as many areas as can be done.

I would make sure that the regional/national series have the technical support that they need, but focus on the needs of the local tracks to make sure they have the support that they need to evolve their rules and tech, but at a slower pace that meets the needs of their racers.

I would make sure to remember that the needs of the local track/racer, and the needs of the regional/national series/racer, are two different needs and that I need to consider both when making any changes to the rules.

Note: One is not more important than the other. They are both equally important and necessary for long term success. And over time, the rules of the regional/national and local tracks will become fairly close.

When I started this thread, I had hoped that it would start a positive conversation about the engine in general, and it did. I’ve received a number of emails, phone calls, and PM’s about it from various folks in the industry that don’t post, but watch. I feel that it is important to have these types of discussions so that we can all share our ideas on how to grow our sport and not be so divisive all of the time.

The reality? It isn’t that bad, and the sky isn’t falling. We’re working on the rules and tech to get it better. Enjoy the fact that this is still (and will be for quite some time) an inexpensive package that you can enjoy racing, even if it isn't perfect.

Joe Janowski
NKA, Inc.
 
I hear you Joe and i'm in total agreement with your line of thoughts! So...who's going too be 'emperor' when NKA, ARKA, WKA, IKF, USKA etc etc...(all Insurance Company's btw) sit down at a Round Table too vote on who's going to control what? It sounds too me like what the racers really need is an IKC....Independent Karting Coalition. Am I serious(?)...Darned if I know!!
 
Loaded question there. Here's how I look at it, and this is just my opinion;

People don't want and don't trust institutions anymore. This includes government, large corporations, large coalitions, etc. that deliver their gospel from the ivory tower and use fear or intimidation to implement policy. Instead, we're moving towards a user-approved type of concept where you have to be able to provide value and be accountable to what you do. Amazon is a good example of this, with their user ratings. If a product gets lousy reviews, people don't buy it. It doesn't matter what type of marketing or advertising is done. If it gets two stars, it's not going to sell.

This is our focus at the NKA. We want to be successful based on what we offer and how well it works. Frankly, we don't consider ourselves a sanctioning body in the traditional sense. While we offer some of the same things, we don't do other things. For instance, we don't promote races or shows, as those things are more of the old institutional type of offerings. I believe that promoters and track operators are better suited to promoting races and shows. Instead, we offer things that tracks and series need to be able to provide good events for their customers such as rules, technical assistance, licensing programs, pit pass programs, and other offerings as well. It's our job to keep those offerings relevant or we go out of business. Simple as that.

So I don't think we need a massive oversight organization, which would just clog up the works even worse. We need a group that steps up and just does it. I feel we're that group and am working hard to make that happen, but others I'm sure feel the same way about their group. That's good old fashioned competition, and we're all for it.

That said, I didn't start this thread to be an NKA commercial, but to answer your question I sort of had to cover that. Therefore, if anyone from any other organization wants to chime in, have at it.

Joe Janowski
NKA, Inc.
 
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