3 holes on left front spindle
- Thread starter Marleyboy
- Start date
Are you sure? When you move the tie rod closer to the spindle center you increase ackerman' which means the LF will turn further than the RF, which makes the kart turn in harder and tighter. When you move away from center point you decrease travel. Response speed would be dictated by moving all three tie rod mounting points (left, center and right) closer or further from pivot points. I think thats what I'm trying to say.
flattop1
Dawg 89
this is correct. closer to kin pin faster / more travel.
XXX#40
2A supporter
Ackerman isnt affected, oval karts are fixed ackerman in the spindle arm, moving the tire rod in or out increases and decrease steering speed for that tire.
ackerman can only be changed by changing the way the tie rods mount on the bottom of the steering shaft .
Notice how the spindle arm is mounted to the spindle barrel, ackerman can also be adjusted by moving these two in relation to one another
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XXX#40
2A supporter
Faster because you have shortened the throw
Mr South 59
New member
Sorry. But I have to correct what XXX posted.
The steering gets slower when move the tie rods to the top hole or closer to the steering shaft on the pitman are.
And also to correct the other statement by XXX in post 7. Ackerman is not fixed on a kart. Ackerman is greatly affected by the placement of the tie rod ends on the spindle arms. The closer the tie rod is to the kingpin the faster the steering is on that spindle and the farther away it is from the kingpin the slower that spindle.
There are a few other unorthodox methods to adjusting Ackerman on a kart but I would not suggest them. But Ackerman is very much adjustable on most karts.
If you really want to get a full understanding of Ackerman on your kart you should buy an Ackuman and play with it. I slot out all 3 holes to make one long hole so that I have unobstructed Ackerman adjustments on my karts.
I do that on mine also, and it does give you more adjustability to fine tune how your kart turns in and comes out on higher or lower bite tracks. You can adjust the ackerman to make your kart able to come out of the corner lower and tighter without binding up the chassis or losing as much rpm on a high bite track, or you can make it to where its easier to turn into the corner if your having to fight it in also. Todd (LTG) had a great post on this on the old site.
mikelavite#72
Member
I am suprized "fastbraden11" has not chimed in here . he adjusted the ackerman on one of my karts at Duquoin for me once . it was big help
flattop1
Dawg 89
How would you do this? left right or both, explain please.
I do not know how to explain it when i did it was back when the old site was up, i did it on my kart when i was looking for solution to why my kart was bound up coming off the turns on a good bite track, but not on a lower bite track with the same kind of turns. I found the article which i believe was by LTG but could have been mike mccarty (sp?), and tried what it said to do, which worked. It said to move the LF tie rod end toward the kingpin one hole farther than the right side was positioned, if i remember right. I do not know alot about chassis setup. A friend of mine told me to slot the holes to make it easier to fine tune it, and i did, but havent had the need to change it since that one time. Hopefully someone else can explain it better for you
Taken from Ultramax website
For this season, Ultramax Racing Chassis has implemented Ackerman adjustability on our chassis. The function of Ackerman in front-end geometry is to turn the inside tire at a higher rate than the outside tire. This is based on the geometric understanding that the left front tire is traveling on a tighter arc than the right front tire.
In most cases your desired Ackerman setting will be with the left front tie-rod end one hole closer to the king pin bolt than the right front tie-rod end. In unison with the correct Pitman arm angle, this will give you the correct amount of left front steering lead for most conditions.
Although this setting will be ideal for most track conditions you may encounter certain situations that you will benefit from a change in Ackerman. On a fast, hard biting racetrack, moving the left front tie-rod end forward another hole may free the front-end up from the apex to corner exit, allowing for you to exit the corners lower without binding the chassis or engine RPM’s (picture above). Likewise, on a slower racetrack that lacks bite, you may find it helpful to move the left front tie-rod end back a hole to stabilize the chassis on corner entry to the apex.
As with all adjustments on our chassis, if you are not comfortable with the adjustments or just like to keep your adjustments simple, we recommend that you run the settings that we recommended above. These are settings that will be ideal for all situations and will not hinder performance under certain track conditions like the other settings may, if the wrong adjustment is made.
For this season, Ultramax Racing Chassis has implemented Ackerman adjustability on our chassis. The function of Ackerman in front-end geometry is to turn the inside tire at a higher rate than the outside tire. This is based on the geometric understanding that the left front tire is traveling on a tighter arc than the right front tire.
In most cases your desired Ackerman setting will be with the left front tie-rod end one hole closer to the king pin bolt than the right front tie-rod end. In unison with the correct Pitman arm angle, this will give you the correct amount of left front steering lead for most conditions.
Although this setting will be ideal for most track conditions you may encounter certain situations that you will benefit from a change in Ackerman. On a fast, hard biting racetrack, moving the left front tie-rod end forward another hole may free the front-end up from the apex to corner exit, allowing for you to exit the corners lower without binding the chassis or engine RPM’s (picture above). Likewise, on a slower racetrack that lacks bite, you may find it helpful to move the left front tie-rod end back a hole to stabilize the chassis on corner entry to the apex.
As with all adjustments on our chassis, if you are not comfortable with the adjustments or just like to keep your adjustments simple, we recommend that you run the settings that we recommended above. These are settings that will be ideal for all situations and will not hinder performance under certain track conditions like the other settings may, if the wrong adjustment is made.
As some mentioned more Ackerman (left front tie rod closer to kingpin) will make the front more responsive and will turn in quicker. Beneficial for tighter radius corners and can help with a push. If the front has too much initial grip and response moving the connection back will decrease ackerman.
The angle the tie rods are on also effect ackerman. Even the amount of washers between the tie rod end and spindles makes a difference. The single hole pitman arm makes ackerman changes slight compared to sprint chassis that have 2 separate holes on the pitman arm for the tie rods.
On a related topic if you pitman arm has another single hole closer to the shaft that hole will slow the steering rate down compared to being in the hole furthest away from the shaft. It will also make the kart easier to steer. The downside is you will have to turn the steering wheel farther.
With that said, I agree with ultramax that it should not be a primary adjustment. Much more for fine tuning.
The angle the tie rods are on also effect ackerman. Even the amount of washers between the tie rod end and spindles makes a difference. The single hole pitman arm makes ackerman changes slight compared to sprint chassis that have 2 separate holes on the pitman arm for the tie rods.
On a related topic if you pitman arm has another single hole closer to the shaft that hole will slow the steering rate down compared to being in the hole furthest away from the shaft. It will also make the kart easier to steer. The downside is you will have to turn the steering wheel farther.
With that said, I agree with ultramax that it should not be a primary adjustment. Much more for fine tuning.
paulkish
old fart
Grip is usually associated with weight on a tire. We talk about balancing grip front to rear and balancing it across the back. And most of the concern about balancing weight across the back is about lost rpm apex out. What's neglected and not talked about is balancing weight across the front. This is LTO and tires do a specific job all around the track. We don't concern ourselves being able to balance things because we need to turn both left and right. Instead it's about using each tire for specific needs around the track. You also don't just have one cross on a LTO racer. You have RF/LR cross, but you also have a LF/RR cross which comes into play, again during how you specifically need to use your tires around the track.
We've hashed out often about how to set camber gain etc. at the RF to get needed use out of the RF entering and to the apex. There's also been a lot of explanation on how the RF settings effect holding rpm's up, especially apex off. But now all of a sudden there seems to be a realization about how the LF is turned, can effect rpm's apex off. Well, which is it, the RF or LF that so critically effects rpm's? Back to basics, at least my basics. The only reason you lost rpm's in the first place was you were tight coming off. Tight in the meaning of two or more tires were fighting each other for control of direction.
I'll try to net it out. Up to the apex things were great because you got needed weight to the RF via the RF/LR cross while decelerating and maintaining speed to and through an extended apex. Next you started to accelerate and return weight to the LR. But as I started out with this, weight follows grip and there is also a LF/RR cross. What is being described above in other posts when ackerman or LF tire turning speed is adjusted is you are changing the grip level or balance across the front, when weight is being moved back to the rear. Try looking at it in this way. Read the posts about how changes to LF tire steering rate fixed a problem. When I read them they were all consistent with the following thought. Weight was on the RF to the apex, then apex out in all cases when weight was returning to the LR, it got there too fast. The general way it's usually looked at on here is you then get tight because the rears start driving the kart in a direction you don't want to go and you have to fight it with the fronts. In other words your locked down apex off. Now look at what the fix in the posts above did in all situations. The fix increased the ability of the LF to grip the track apex off. Back to weight follows grip. By increasing the grip at the LF, it held or detoured weight traveling to the LR at the LF.
I'll stop. I either made a case for using the grip ability at the LF, to help control LR engagement or I didn't. And the case I tried to make was altering grip at the LF, alters the path and in turn the speed at which weight is returned to the LR.
maybe because this is all just IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ...
We've hashed out often about how to set camber gain etc. at the RF to get needed use out of the RF entering and to the apex. There's also been a lot of explanation on how the RF settings effect holding rpm's up, especially apex off. But now all of a sudden there seems to be a realization about how the LF is turned, can effect rpm's apex off. Well, which is it, the RF or LF that so critically effects rpm's? Back to basics, at least my basics. The only reason you lost rpm's in the first place was you were tight coming off. Tight in the meaning of two or more tires were fighting each other for control of direction.
I'll try to net it out. Up to the apex things were great because you got needed weight to the RF via the RF/LR cross while decelerating and maintaining speed to and through an extended apex. Next you started to accelerate and return weight to the LR. But as I started out with this, weight follows grip and there is also a LF/RR cross. What is being described above in other posts when ackerman or LF tire turning speed is adjusted is you are changing the grip level or balance across the front, when weight is being moved back to the rear. Try looking at it in this way. Read the posts about how changes to LF tire steering rate fixed a problem. When I read them they were all consistent with the following thought. Weight was on the RF to the apex, then apex out in all cases when weight was returning to the LR, it got there too fast. The general way it's usually looked at on here is you then get tight because the rears start driving the kart in a direction you don't want to go and you have to fight it with the fronts. In other words your locked down apex off. Now look at what the fix in the posts above did in all situations. The fix increased the ability of the LF to grip the track apex off. Back to weight follows grip. By increasing the grip at the LF, it held or detoured weight traveling to the LR at the LF.
I'll stop. I either made a case for using the grip ability at the LF, to help control LR engagement or I didn't. And the case I tried to make was altering grip at the LF, alters the path and in turn the speed at which weight is returned to the LR.
maybe because this is all just IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ...
paulkish
old fart
Quick thought using my general BS. I always say when accelerating apex off, you only need to transfer enough weight to the bigger RR tire, so it's faster surface speed can out accelerate the LR. Controlling weight to the RR so it can out accelerate the LR and gradually moving it back to the LR, can control total direction of travel.
Now, taking weight off the RR too soon is no different then increasing weight to the LR, from the front too soon. The net result is you reduce the ability of the RR to out accelerate the LR. It makes no difference if the RR looses ability to grip or if the LR gains ability to grip over the RR. The net result is you will have to fight the direction the rears want to go, with the front wheels and you will be tight or locked down coming off. ... that is assuming you have the grip up front to fight the rears... if you didn't then this would be about push, not rpm loss coming off. ...
edit: ... anytime you loose anything in the ability of the rear staggered solid axle to operate in what I describe as the ideal way to go in the direction you want to go, it has to be made up with control of direction with the fronts. And any direction control from the fronts, eats hp, causes conflict between tires and slows you down. ... now if over all your closer then everyone else to the ideal and your out front... then it really doesn't matter. ...
Now, taking weight off the RR too soon is no different then increasing weight to the LR, from the front too soon. The net result is you reduce the ability of the RR to out accelerate the LR. It makes no difference if the RR looses ability to grip or if the LR gains ability to grip over the RR. The net result is you will have to fight the direction the rears want to go, with the front wheels and you will be tight or locked down coming off. ... that is assuming you have the grip up front to fight the rears... if you didn't then this would be about push, not rpm loss coming off. ...
edit: ... anytime you loose anything in the ability of the rear staggered solid axle to operate in what I describe as the ideal way to go in the direction you want to go, it has to be made up with control of direction with the fronts. And any direction control from the fronts, eats hp, causes conflict between tires and slows you down. ... now if over all your closer then everyone else to the ideal and your out front... then it really doesn't matter. ...