Track Tac

A thought about speck racing

paulkish

paulkish

old fart
Be it engine, tires, gearing or what ever, speck racing does not limit cost it dictates a minimum cost. It takes away the ability to learn and do for yourself. It takes away what you can do to limit your cost, over a competitors store bought and builder built cost. It provides a way to pass the minimum cost of racing through many hands, with each hand taking and putting the expense of their taking on the racer.

Rules create expense for all, by creating not only cost for the ruler but also the opportunity for profit.

Your never going to get rid of all rules, all the racer can do is to work towards limiting rules rather then expanding rules. Instead of deciding how rules must be made to race, effort should be on what rules are not necessary to race and could be eliminated. Following every rule in every rule book, it should read, "Is this rule needed and why is it needed if not for profit?".

... or the racer can just do what they can, to be as fast as they can within the rules. ... :)
 
Wow, Paul -- a post I completely agree with you on! ;) Well, other than the grammar of "spec". lol

IMO, the more rules you constrain racing with, cost is forced to rise because each little detail is magnified in importance. Same with low-hp karting -- if the hp is the limiting factor on speed instead of traction, then every little .1 hp has to be chased to be competitive.... if the kart can spin the wheels on demand, tires become the (cheaper) limiting factor.

One of the primary reasons I race UAS is that there's no tech so I get out of the track more quickly, and the higher hp is more fun to drive, and there's room to tinker in the garage at home -- which is nearly as fun as the racing!! What's not to like? The downside is having to compete against the local superteams, but I can live with that. (Of course they're also all rolling their eyes because we can all count on one hand the races I've bothered to show up for....lol)
 
Paul, the one point I can't agree with is where you state that spec racing takes away the ability to learn and do for yourself. In a lot of ways, putting racers inside a box incites them to actually become even more creative, and to find other areas to optimize.
 
paulkish said:
Be it engine, tires, gearing or what ever, speck racing does not limit cost it dictates a minimum cost. It takes away the ability to learn and do for yourself. It takes away what you can do to limit your cost, over a competitors store bought and builder built cost. It provides a way to pass the minimum cost of racing through many hands, with each hand taking and putting the expense of their taking on the racer.

Rules create expense for all, by creating not only cost for the ruler but also the opportunity for profit.

Your never going to get rid of all rules, all the racer can do is to work towards limiting rules rather then expanding rules. Instead of deciding how rules must be made to race, effort should be on what rules are not necessary to race and could be eliminated. Following every rule in every rule book, it should read, "Is this rule needed and why is it needed if not for profit?".

... or the racer can just do what they can, to be as fast as they can within the rules. ... :)
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Thus is based on your having raced in classes or series that had a spec placed on engines and/or tires?
 
rebsfan4 said:
Thus is based on your having raced in classes or series that had a spec placed on engines and/or tires?
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Yes and it was around the time when winning WKA brigs, were going for as much as $2800 and up to a $1000 checkup and rebuild between race dates. I personally know a person who spent $15,000 on brigs engines his first couple of years getting into the, so called cheap sport.

Yes I'm speaking from experience, are you asking from experience? I can also speak from experience about the cost of building or putting together your own car racing engine, verses the cost of a speck car engine.

Tire cost I don't know about and don't know about actual tire prep costs per tire. We've never had a new tire racing cars and during our kart experience we never knowingly got into tire prep, though we did prep our dirt tires without knowing we were prepping them.

Your turn; or you can accept I'm not just throwing out smoke and mirrors.
 
Some of you have heard this before but it was on the old forum so I will do it again. This is why we need rules. Little Jimmy and the neighbor Johny wanted to have a go kart. their dads thoughtit would be a neat idea so they bought them a cheap racing chassis and then built a track in the field between the two houses to play on. They both agreed to race a spec engine. They were having a blast racing with each other week in and week out. Then one day a new kid moved in down the street and came to watch them have fun in the field. The new kid ask his dad to ask the other dads if he could race with them. Next week all three are having a blast passing and pushing each other around the track. A few weeks of this goes on and all of a sudden the new kid is leaving the other two and sometimes passing them. The three boys got to talking in study hall one day and the new kid told them that his dad went to the local lawn mower shops and bought all the spec broken engines they had. He also let it slip that his dad found that the one series of engines had a better flowing head than the ones they were to be running under the spec engines. He told the two boys that his dad said the valves were sunk in the head a lot more than the spec valves and that would make more horsepower. The boys went home and told their fathers what they had heard. Now you have the rest of the story as to why rules are needed.
 
DynoDon -- the flaw in your story is the Dad.....who felt the need to find a mechanical edge vs. simply letting his kid have fun in a spec class. He violated the intent of the class, while he may not have violated the rules. This is why, IMO, spec classes should have no payouts, almost meaningless awards, and be mostly about bragging rights. It leaves a place for the low-budget and low-time availability racer a place to simply have fun and focus on driving.

Karting seems to have forgotten about that concept.
 
I've been racing one thing or another for 50 years and I can say with all certainty, there is no way to make a perfect set of rules.
 
I did not intend this thread to be about rules. I ask if any rule makes anything cost effective, compared to not having the rule and policing the rule.
 
paulkish said:
I did not intend this thread to be about rules. I ask if any rule makes anything cost effective, compared to not having the rule and policing the rule.
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Rules create expense for all, by creating not only cost for the ruler but also the opportunity for profit.

The above taken from your origional post is probably why you are seeing comments about rules. And yes Ted, I agree with you
 
You talked an awful lot about rules to not have rules commented on. Specifically on how rules create expenses. And yes, I'm around spec racing all the time. It has phased out down this way for the most part. It had nothing to do with rules and cost though, for it was/is a cheaper form of racing. People just tended to want the most out what they put on the track in the way of speed and grip. Both which by the way cost more.
 
Ted Hamilton said:
DynoDon -- the flaw in your story is the Dad.....who felt the need to find a mechanical edge vs. simply letting his kid have fun in a spec class. He violated the intent of the class, while he may not have violated the rules. This is why, IMO, spec classes should have no payouts, almost meaningless awards, and be mostly about bragging rights. It leaves a place for the low-budget and low-time availability racer a place to simply have fun and focus on driving.

Karting seems to have forgotten about that concept.
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There's absolutely nothing stopping ANY local Saturday night track from doing just this. The only thing to stop it is the racers. Tracks aren't gonna offer a class that doesn't have much interest.
 
rebsfan4 said:
There's absolutely nothing stopping ANY local Saturday night track from doing just this. The only thing to stop it is the racers. Tracks aren't gonna offer a class that doesn't have much interest.
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We have a class like this at a local friday/saturday night racetrack near me, where im a frequent racer and am there every weekend. They have a class specifically for the people who are just there to have fun, learn, or spend time with their kids and race, there is actually 2 of them, adult beginners and predator box stock. The adult beginners class is free entry fee and no payout, winner doesnt even get a trophy, they race strictly for fun and bragging rights, this is box stock 196 clones that basically follow AKRA rules exept the flywheel must be steel billet or stock and must have a weenie pipe and shoe clutch. The predator box stock is for adults and kids both who are wanting to get into racing, get back into racing, or just have fun racing, there is a $10 entry fee and the engines must be 100% stock out of the box with the exception of a 3/4" weenie pipe, top plate/fuel pump, and governor removed, there is a claim on these engines for $150 minus the accesories mentioned, must have a shoe clutch and stock flywheel. The adult beginners class is usually the class with the most entries at this track, they do allow kids 15 and up to race with the adults in that class. It is always fun watching them race, and is always good close racing. For the rest of us experienced racers, we have box stock lite, medium and heavy using AKRA rules with the exception of a weenie pipe and shoe clutch only, no big pipes or disc clutches, and there is tech for that class if money is being paid out, we also have clone lite, medium, and heavy as well as occasionally some opens. This is a family owned and operated racetrack and is a great place for the family and friends to hang out, have fun, and enjoy the weekend racing without having to spend alot of money to do so. It is exactly what the majority of the racers who come there want, and is what they get.
 
Weddle Racing said:
We have a class like this at a local friday/saturday night racetrack near me, where im a frequent racer and am there every weekend. They have a class specifically for the people who are just there to have fun, learn, or spend time with their kids and race, there is actually 2 of them, adult beginners and predator box stock. The adult beginners class is free entry fee and no payout, winner doesnt even get a trophy, they race strictly for fun and bragging rights, this is box stock 196 clones that basically follow AKRA rules exept the flywheel must be steel billet or stock and must have a weenie pipe and shoe clutch. The predator box stock is for adults and kids both who are wanting to get into racing, get back into racing, or just have fun racing, there is a $10 entry fee and the engines must be 100% stock out of the box with the exception of a 3/4" weenie pipe, top plate/fuel pump, and governor removed, there is a claim on these engines for $150 minus the accesories mentioned, must have a shoe clutch and stock flywheel. The adult beginners class is usually the class with the most entries at this track, they do allow kids 15 and up to race with the adults in that class. It is always fun watching them race, and is always good close racing. For the rest of us experienced racers, we have box stock lite, medium and heavy using AKRA rules with the exception of a weenie pipe and shoe clutch only, no big pipes or disc clutches, and there is tech for that class if money is being paid out, we also have clone lite, medium, and heavy as well as occasionally some opens. This is a family owned and operated racetrack and is a great place for the family and friends to hang out, have fun, and enjoy the weekend racing without having to spend alot of money to do so. It is exactly what the majority of the racers who come there want, and is what they get.
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Ok...you validate my statement. Local Saturday night tracks always have that option. Now compare that to a nation wide data base of local track across the nation. For the most part, it is few and far between you see tracks that have that. The track you speak of has racers that support that type class. Those are few and far between as well. We have a standing rule at the local tracks down....."3 karts and you can make a class." That leaves in the hands of the racers to get it going whenever they are ready. It isn't much of a surprise to me that none have step forward to do so.
 
There are at least 2 local tracks to me running a box stock Predator class... I just think we're on the forefront of that movement as people burn out on the supposedly "cheap" clones. That's why the clone was so popular to begin with -- people liked the idea of cheap easy racing.

To Paul's original point, I think the decline in tinkering, innovating, and popularity decline of limiteds and opens is that 20 years ago dads and kids had mechanical backgrounds, shop classes in school, industry experience in manufacturing, and worked on their own stuff in their garage with all kinds of ideas and theories.... Today's younger folk, and a decent percentage of adults, aren't mechanically inclined like previous generations. As a consequence, they've pushed for "spec" classes where they have the illusion that can compete on a level playing field...
 
Spec can be palatable. The problem with a lot of spec classes is that they a neutered, pussified excuse for a racing package. Too much of anything is bad. An over reliance on spec is bad, everything being "open" is not good either. Needs to be a better balance and more variety.

Oh and spec's that are fair.
 
As I see the issue being discussed....my opinion....most racers(primarily oval) see the engine as the equalizer...not chassis set up and tuning. I do believe all tire treating/treatments should be made illegal and dealt with accordingly(safety issues). The entire package is important! The best engine for the money invested.....Pro Gas Animal....investigate and make your argument as to why you may feel it is not.
 
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