Air density and jetting

alvin l nunley

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
Why is it so hard to convince people that the air density and the EGT (exhaust gas temperature) are so important?? Is it because I don't race LTO? As if that had anything to do with it!! I don't race now, but I did. Fairly successfully I might add. Unfortunately I learned too late how important those two things are. Since I've been on Bob's, it just amazes me the resistance that I've seen to those two devices, the air density gauge and EGT gauge. People will go on and on and on about gear sets, but totally ignore, what I think, are the most important devices you can have if you want to go faster!!

I'm guessing everybody knows, the hotter your air fuel mixture burns, the more power you produce. And yet, even knowing that, nobody seems to care what the temperature is inside the cylinder.

Let me tell you something, I used to go to sleep at night and my last thought was how to go faster, and when I woke up my first thought was, how to go faster. lol. When I discovered how useful the EGT was, my one thought was, I sure wish I had discovered this earlier in my career.
 
alvin l nunley said:
Why do you ask? Are you under the impression that it makes a difference? "Tell us about it"?? tell you what?
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Wow al..that was totally rude and out of line! The man was just asking a question. Way to once again prove you are a totally jerk everyone says you are! Thanks for proven it once again!
 
shadetree said:
Wow al..that was totally rude and out of line! The man was just asking a question. Way to once again prove you are a totally jerk everyone says you are! Thanks for proven it once again!
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You're trying to read emotions into the written word. It's a daunting task. I asked a question, how should I have worded it? To tell you the truth, calling me a total jerk is what's out of line here. He asked a question, "tell us about it." I assume that was a question. Now you're saying I'm a jerk because I asked him what he wanted to know. If you ask me, that's what's kind of rude.

Let me ask another question; you've only been here two months, so how is it you know what everybody thinks?
 
alvin l nunley said:
You're trying to read emotions into the written word. It's a daunting task. I asked a question, how should I have worded it? To tell you the truth, calling me a total jerk is what's out of line here. He asked a question, "tell us about it." I assume that was a question. Now you're saying I'm a jerk because I asked him what he wanted to know. If you ask me, that's what's kind of rude.

Let me ask another question; you've only been here two months, so how is it you know what everybody thinks?
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He's trying to read emotions into the written word, WOW if that's not the pot calling the kettle black that's EXACTLY what you did with your response to a guy just asking a question, I've been here way longer than 2 months he's exactly right in what you did. I've seen you ask why someone would be so RUDE next time you feel the need to ask, consider what goes around comes around.
 
alvin l nunley said:
Why is it so hard to convince people that the air density and the EGT (exhaust gas temperature) are so important?? Is it because I don't race LTO? As if that had anything to do with it!! I don't race now, but I did. Fairly successfully I might add. Unfortunately I learned too late how important those two things are. Since I've been on Bob's, it just amazes me the resistance that I've seen to those two devices, the air density gauge and EGT gauge. People will go on and on and on about gear sets, but totally ignore, what I think, are the most important devices you can have if you want to go faster!!

I'm guessing everybody knows, the hotter your air fuel mixture burns, the more power you produce. And yet, even knowing that, nobody seems to care what the temperature is inside the cylinder.

Let me tell you something, I used to go to sleep at night and my last thought was how to go faster, and when I woke up my first thought was, how to go faster. lol. When I discovered how useful the EGT was, my one thought was, I sure wish I had discovered this earlier in my career.
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I guess some of us just get tired of the beating of a dead horse on here, Al.

What makes you think that people don't think AD and egt are important?
I know plenty of people (esp. builders) who understand full and well how important both are.

I also think that people that go to sleep and wake thinking of ways to go faster are generally those that are on top of their game and are also the ones that know plenty about the importance of properly tuning their race engines.

Now, I have no argument with the importance of understanding AD and egt and using that data (like any and all other data) to improve your performance. I do, however, take exception to your seemingly hard and fast rules and blanket statements like: "compression is the holy grail," "a ratio is a ratio, "nobody seems to care what the temperature is inside the cylinder," "(AD & EGT)...are the most important devices you can have if you want to go faster," ad nauseam.

FWIW, I'd take the right set of tires over "perfect" EGT. I know plenty of folks who agree with me as well.

Further, you make a lot of assumptions...many of which are unfounded.
Let's take this one, for instance, which simply is not true.
I'm guessing everybody knows, the hotter your air fuel mixture burns, the more power you produce.
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One example/exception is a small restrictor plate flathead. It's only the most popular engine used in karting over the past 20 years or so. A small plate flathead will make more power when it is tuned extremely rich (ie 800-900 peak egt) in it's very low rpm powerband. I have the data to back up this statement, and plenty of well known small plate engine builders agree with me and build their engines similarly. If you lean one of these engines down to get the egt up, it will flat kill the power in the thing. That is the truth.

And before you cry that we're picking on you again, consider what you are saying here....You are basically characterizing kart racers as a bunch of careless, misinformed, oblivious to the obvious, disinterested in going faster buffoons!

Al, you've got great experience in kart racing (albeit many years ago with a 2 cycle on pavement road courses) that you could be sharing information with those who are wanting to learn from you. By telling all those perspective disciples, especially in the beginners forums, that they simply don't care, etc. is kind of counterproductive, isn't it?


-----
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
27 years of service to the karting industry
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
 
Al I preach a lot about how I think a staggered solid axle needs to be used in the most efficient way or work. Everything I write I realize is not necessarily correct and I try to learn from someone knowledgeable every chance I get, both on here and in person.

Just this past week I was at a major kart manufacture asked a question about a specific chassis which I went there to ask, got and answer and more info. The more info again set me back and is making me again reconsider all I think about chassis and again how I need to learn more about tires. I was told I was correct in my thinking about how the specific chassis works at the kart manufacture. I was also told the chassis is already out dated and has been replaced because of how important tires now are.

I also Al got to talk to the owner of a major big block car chassis manufacture about 4 wheel drift, the two only reasons for a 4 wheel drift, why it occurs and the fix. He kindly listened to me rant on as I do in writing on here for a long while. By the way until the end of the conversation I did not know he owned the company, him only telling me at the end of our conversation. It netted out to him telling me he thought I was 100% correct about the 4 wheel drift and him saying to me he thought I was correct about my thoughts of the specific part of the car I was asking about.

The point being Al, I go to where the racing is every week and often get to talk with the top people in the LTO racing business about how things work and my theories on how things work. That being said Al, I'm still always behind on things and still don't know for sure if what I think is correct and am told is correct is correct.

From your posts on here Al it appears you think you know all about EGT, air density and how fuel operates. Al, it's being explained to you that you do not know it all, the same as I do not know it all. Al, I'm totally stupid and dumb on what I think I understand, maybe you need to jump on board and join my club? ... :)
 
Can I ask you a favor; do you have any EGT data on restrictor engines that you can share with me? It has always puzzled me that restricted engines need to run richer jet settings than unrestricted engines.

The old saying "there are exceptions to every rule" is known by most, and this is one "for instance". My statement, that the hotter the gas burns, the faster it expands, the more power it produces, is true, except, perhaps, in this one exception.

I wish I could discover the reason for this "exception". I don't expect an answer to this.
 
alvin l nunley said:
Can I ask you a favor; do you have any EGT data on restrictor engines that you can share with me? It has always puzzled me that restricted engines need to run richer jet settings than unrestricted engines.

The old saying "there are exceptions to every rule" is known by most, and this is one "for instance". My statement, that the hotter the gas burns, the faster it expands, the more power it produces, is true, except, perhaps, in this one exception.

I wish I could discover the reason for this "exception". I don't expect an answer to this.
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The answer to your question about the "exception" has been explained many times on here. YOUR problem is you can't accept what anyone else explains to you. You instead DEMAND others do work for you so you can have what YOU want so you can discover or FEEL like you discovered it for yourself. It's already been explained on here umteen times to you Al.

and rudely answering the question you didn't yet ask, NO I won't point out to you where it's been explained, go find it for yourself.
 
paulkish said:
The answer to your question about the "exception" has been explained many times on here. YOUR problem is you can't accept what anyone else explains to you. You instead DEMAND others do work for you so you can have what YOU want so you can discover or FEEL like you discovered it for yourself. It's already been explained on here umteen times to you Al.

and rudely answering the question you didn't yet ask, NO I won't point out to you where it's been explained, go find it for yourself.
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I'm sorry, I seem to have upset you Paul. I agree with you, there have been several attempts to answer the question, none of which I found to be satisfactory, and so I keep looking for the answer that will explain it to me fully, and to my satisfaction. Is this wrong? It appears to me that you think so.

I'm wondering; why do you think it's necessary for you to answer these questions?
 
Al if has been explained to you that many times and it's not satisfactory, maybe you should be more open to explanations, you know if you don't wanna understand something, chances are you prolly wont.
 
alvin l nunley said:
I'm sorry, I seem to have upset you Paul. I agree with you, there have been several attempts to answer the question, none of which I found to be satisfactory, and so I keep looking for the answer that will explain it to me fully, and to my satisfaction. Is this wrong? It appears to me that you think so.

I'm wondering; why do you think it's necessary for you to answer these questions?
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This line tells the entire story. You want people to explain it to you in the same manner which you already have it thought out in your head. That's the only satisfactory answer you can accept, one that doesn't disagree with you. The biggest problem with you on this site Al, besides your complete lack of experience in LTO dirt racing, is you came here, years ago, with the thought that people should just accept the things you say as 100% accurate without having anything other than your theories to go by. You then get your feelings hurt because people don't just up and reinvent the wheel for you.
 
rebsfan4 said:
This line tells the entire story. You want people to explain it to you in the same manner which you already have it thought out in your head. That's the only satisfactory answer you can accept, one that doesn't disagree with you. The biggest problem with you on this site Al, besides your complete lack of experience in LTO dirt racing, is you came here, years ago, with the thought that people should just accept the things you say as 100% accurate without having anything other than your theories to go by. You then get your feelings hurt because people don't just up and reinvent the wheel for you.
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I'm surprised, all of your "assumptions" are total mistruths. These are all just things that you dreamed up on your own and have absolutely nothing to do with I think. I am totally surprised at the depths you will sink to in an attempt to make me out to be the bad guy.
 
alvin l nunley said:
I'm surprised, all of your "assumptions" are total mistruths. These are all just things that you dreamed up on your own and have absolutely nothing to do with I think. I am totally surprised at the depths you will sink to in an attempt to make me out to be the bad guy.
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Let's see......what was that saying? Oh yeah.......


alvin l nunley said:
You're trying to read emotions into the written word. It's a daunting task.
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:) :)
 
In all my testing... most I have seen on any given day... is a .1-.5difference in afr from one extreme to the next...
I have never used egt or air density...
In the clones you want to run rich mainly for the transitions between the two jets...
They are very basic carbs, and designed to run on mixers, and generators for common jobs, at low rpms all day without issue...

For example in the morning at 50*f you might be at 12.7 afr a few hrs later at 85*f you might be at 12.5, and at the late afternoon at 90*f you might be at 12.6
And again late at night 65*f you might be at 12.65 afr...

In plate engines they are restricted so you are trying to push the fuel through a smaller hole so to feed it properly you up the jet sizes...
 
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