Animal BP vs 206 Super Stock

steve baker

steve baker

Moderator
We spent a few minutes comparing the Animal BP ( Blue Printed ) to the LO206 Super Stock engine as it relates to build time and cost. This study is based on converting a used LO206 engine to the Animal BP or the Super Stock engine, based on current Animal BP spec #704 from WKA tech manual and the Super Stock Faster Motors rules dated 3/5/20. As we compared the differences between these two engine design specs the only difference is for the Animal BP engine you are permitted to Mill the block and head deck surfaces and the Super Stock they must remain as from factory. So from a cost perspective the Animal BP engine would take about 30 minutes and $60.00 more for building for the milling operations. But considering that the Super Stock engine uses a $20.00 more expensive camshaft ( AN - Mod1 welded lobe ) the difference is really only $40.00 between these 2 engines.
BRE is in the process now of collecting all the parts for a Super Stock engine build for Dyno and Performance studies.

We are not saying the Super Stock can't develop into a good program over time, we just need to understand all the facts and take a close look at its performance and reliability as it compares to the current WKA Animal BP engine.

Another key point is we need to make sure Briggs Motorsports ( DR ) would be supportive of this program before we would jump ship to a completely new engine program.Their approval and support is critical for long term growth and success.

A Pros and Cons study is forthcoming...........

Steve
www.Bakerracingengines.com
 
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What’s the the cost of a BP animal if you start with a donor 206? Why is it that a new BP animal is at the $1600 mark?
 
RacerTB said:
What’s the the cost of a BP animal if you start with a donor 206? Why is it that a new BP animal is at the $1600 mark?
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The question you need to ask is if your current engine builder is charging you $1600.00 for a new BP Animal what would he charge you for a new Super Stock engine! Its going to take an engine builder the same amount of time and expense to build the BP Animal vs the Super Stock. All the same processes, measurements, parts and dyno time are required for both engines except for the BP Animal milling operations ( 30 minutes max ).

Steve
 
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This needs to be in the 206 or sprint forum. There is a way for the 206 SS, WF, and BP Animal can all race together, that can only be a good thing.

the best part about it is, it can put to use engines that have thus far been up in the shelf gathering dust.
double bonus points if an “advanced” class can be developed out of this so the 206 class can be a better version of what it has been and that is an introductory class.

a rising tide lifts all boats (stolen from Doug Rink)
 
It a nice thought bjjones, but racing various engines together has never been successful in the past for understandable reasons. The 3 engines you state in your above post all have vastly different power curves and would not race equally on the race tracks as it relates to acceleration of the corner vs top end speed. Heck even the variations between engine builders is big, let along trying to race with 3 different engine types on top of that. The only race programs that truly have been successful in the past is the ones that follow the exact same engine rules and regulations! That's why the LO206 program is so successful, in Sprint racing that is ................

The ultimate key to successful karting is with the sanctioning organizations, suppliers / manufactures, kart shops and racers all working together with a common goal!

Steve
 
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It is a little bit of wishful thinking. And, I’ll admit, I am old school. I grew up listening to Chevys, Fords, Offys, and a random dodge or two all racing together as one class. Those guys didn’t whine or pout if they didn’t win. They just worked harder.

So, your probably not wrong Steve. At its very root, the problem of class by class homogeneous racing is more a product of us as society than it is of engines. Too many people are petty, insecure and would rather throw money and make rules rather than challenge themselves or solve problems.

Anyway.
Looking at Jimbos’ dyno sheet showing the comparison between the S.S. on alcohol, WF on gas and ( I am assuming ) the BP animal on alcohol, in a sprint setting at least, the numbers are reasonably close.
I will admit, I am not an expert on BP Animal. On the sprint karting side of racing, it’s been all but dead for several years, the only reason I would include it is because I can’t stand the thought of a perfectly good engine sitting on the shelf gathering dust.
 
steve baker said:
The 3 engines you state in your above post all have vastly different power curves and would not race equally on the race tracks as it relates to acceleration of the corner vs top end speed.
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I'm speaking VERY loosely here, but honestly would be fun to see it attempted! Pick which motor you want to run at the beginning of the year and submit it. With the different configurations of sprint tracks in a series it COULD be that in each race with a different track layout favors one motor over the other. It would make for some interesting setups trying to take advantage of each motors powerband.
Again, this is just my mind having some positive fun thoughts about it. :) Don't critique it as I know it definitely wouldn't work as cool as it sounds lol.
 
I would be more concerned with what Steve mentioned about the power curves being different when combining engines into the same class.
If one engine has an advantage at a particular track, another at a different track - it would just about force a person to get the preferred engine at each track.
The idea of committing to a specific engine at the beginning of the season might discourage new racers from joining mid-stream, and guys to give up part way through the season if their choice was not the "preferred" engine choice. I'd also expect the "preferred" engine pricetag to escalate quickly as demand for it increased. I just can't see mixing the engines working (even with differing weights) in sprint racing, although it has been tried and seen some success on ovals where you're basically momentum racing (ie dyno challenge.)
 
Quit crushing my dreams Brian! 😛😛 hahaha
I'm just teasing, I know there's A LOT more complications to it then meets the eye. Still a fun concept if the logistics could ever get figured out. The idea of having motor options for a single class, raced throughout a series, to me sounds like a true chassis and motor tuners dream. Knowing 1 race your motor has the advantage and others you have to find ways to find that even playing field would be such an experience. It would make your team learning mechanics and chassis tuning grow exponentially!
 
Mac_49 said:
Quit crushing my dreams Brian! 😛😛 hahaha
I'm just teasing, I know there's A LOT more complications to it then meets the eye. Still a fun concept if the logistics could ever get figured out. The idea of having motor options for a single class, raced throughout a series, to me sounds like a true chassis and motor tuners dream. Knowing 1 race your motor has the advantage and others you have to find ways to find that even playing field would be such an experience. It would make your team learning mechanics and chassis tuning grow exponentially!
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Yea, I get the "novelty" of it, but the reality of it is that most racers won't continue to compete at tracks where they don't have an advantage (or at least an equal opportunity) to compete for the win.
USAC midget racing has been this way for years. Each new engine combination that is better than the previous version costs significantly more. $60,000+ for a top of the line 4 cylinder engine is hardly good for the sport. That's why there are so many "regional" classes of midgets in addition to the national midget series.
 
Mac_49, You missed out when we had TAG USA rules running in Colorado. Many options, the only thing needed was good mechanics, good chassis tuning and lots of money.
 
Freezeman said:
Mac_49, You missed out when we had TAG USA rules running in Colorado. Many options, the only thing needed was good mechanics, good chassis tuning and lots of money.
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I kid you not I went to the board meetings and convinced them to let me run a Blue Wazoom OHV version with an electric start (even called Lee to confirm that was possible)....I argued how with the starter it was considered "Touch And Go". It was all good until I mentioned that it ran on Alcohol.....that was the turning point they wouldn't allow it.
If only I had kept my mouth shut lol.
 
Remember guys, this is sprint racing. Driving and setup is vastly more important than horsepower. I’d go a little further and say a that low end torque is really the king because most sprint tracks have at least one low speed corner where only turning 3800-4200 rpm.

I’m trying to help you guys appeal to three new and different customers. Why don’t you start thinking of ways it can work rather saying all the ways it can’t

You may be the leaders you’re waiting for.....
 
I did my first comparison between the WF and S.S. on my dyno today and I’m very impressed and hopeful. Both on gas, both with 7100 rev limiters. They are close enough to make good racing in the sprint series.

I don’t know if Jimbos’ kit is proprietary or not but, stock top, pull start no machine work (other than hone), open crank, open cam, open piston, open rod 87 octane gas in both motors. In the coming weeks, hopefully, I can order what I need for a stroker 206 and see if 5hat would be a viable option.

looking at the power curve of BP animal, it might be able to compete on the same gas with a weight break maybe about 15 lbs....
 
Lets look at the whole package.



EXHAUST

The rules are more restrictive for the SS than the Animal since for the SS you are only allow the use of the 5506 or 5507 pipe. Here are some examples including prices from some random sources.

5506 $36.00 Faster Motors

5507 with brace $46.49 Kart Parts Depot

Robertson candy cane Animal pipe $52.95 There are also some builders out there that modify this pipe for additional cost.

Southern Express Pipe $99.99 Ebay This is a very pretty and popular ceramic coated Animal pipe with a pretty price to go with it. You may not want to pay $100.00 bucks for a pipe but some will and their engine builder will encourage it.

With the SS there is no pipe of the week syndrome! Choose your pipe and your done.

CAMSHAFT

Yes the SS camshaft is more expensive than the Animal cam but it makes more power and it doesn’t require A HAND HELD ELECTRIC STARTER THAT WILL SET YOU BACK SOMEWHERE AROUND $250.00. Plus someone doesn’t need to run out on the track to restart the kart after a red flag or caution etc.

CARBURETOR

The carburetor rules are exactly the same as the strict rules used for the LO 206. Unlike the Animal carb you are not allow to do any other modifications other than enlarging the nozzle to methanol size of .104 to .107”, the main jet to .054 to .057” and the idle jet to .014 to .017”

With the Animal carb virtually anything in the float bowl is fair game. You can make the emulsion tube holes large, chamfer them, or solder them shut if you like. And trust me whether it works or not some builders will do it and charge a fortune for their “knowledge” or lack there of.

History has shown us that some people have charged exorbitant amounts for “ black magic carbs”

AIR FILTERS

Must use the 206 Spec air filter or the inexpensive AFR 100 filter. No modifications allowed such as chamfering the ID of the filter. Must have a sharp edge on the internal entrance to the carb.

You may use nylon or foam prefilters

CYLINDER BORE

Some engine builders will tell you they need to bore your Animal to .030” over to get the max HP.

What is that going to cost you?

They probably won’t tell you this but they will cut the oil ring expander to reduce ring drag and they may heat treat the second ring also to reduce drag. They won’t tell you this but they will definitely charge you for it. It’s illegal with the Super Stock

BEARING CLEARANCES

I have also seen some engine builders remove the crank shaft endplay shims and also loosen up the bearings in the pockets

MACHINING THE HEAD

Let’s go with Steve’s price but be aware that there are shops that will charge considerably more than that.

MACHING THE DECK

If the Animal rule for pop up is .005” there are shops that will machine it to .0045” and charge plenty for it.

The bottom line is that if you are allowed to do any machining, no matter how insignificant it may seem people will do it and charge you for it.

The Super Stock is an alternative to that in that you aren’t allowed to do any of it.

The SS was designed with you, the racer, in mind. It makes more power for less money and you may be able to do it yourself. If you need help I’ll be there for you. If you want someone else to do it there are lots of places that can do it for you.

Any other shops or individuals that want to talk just call me. 920-207-9180

Price of the kit is $409.95
 
And, The cost of the kit is a less than you’d pay for the individual parts..

Believe me. Ima cheap SOB I’ve checked...

Guys, I understand I am a no name neophyte in the karting world but, I owned a small engine repair business for 15 years. I understand what makes an engine work. This is a well thought out engine. It’s a great combination of performance and reliability
 
Animal BP vs 206 Super Stock
Additional things to consider when comparing these 2 engine programs.

Bolt on accessories
The bolt on accessories are not a consideration when comparing engine to engine. These can be common for both engines. They will work equally the same on both the Animal BP and the 206 Super Stock engines.
Air filter – same for both engines
Exhaust system – 5506 & 5507 works for both engines
No need for electric starter for BP Animal – just use cam with CR option
Pull rope recoil starter
Carburetor specs / tech items – Can be common for both engines

Cylinder bore
Animal BP +.030
206 Super Stock +.020
It doesn’t really matter, it takes the same amount of labor time and cost for both .020 vs .030 cylinder bore. – The process is the same!
For the record comparing a standard bore to +.030 over bore is worth .25 HP, very well documented data on that! Of course more cubic inches is going to make more power!

Block and head milling.
There is a certain level of blue printing that is always important for engine to engine equality. One of them is the head and block milling to precisely control the compression and assure you will have good head gasket sealing. If milling is not allowed what you end up with is the top racers and engine builders sorting thru blocks and heads to find the best ones that will give you maximum compression.

The importance of compression – Animal engine
It is documented from dyno and track testing that for every .005” dimensional compression change its equal to .1 HP and .1 second lap time on a 1 mile long road course race track. This was validated years ago by the 2 most winning WKA Gold Cup racers, Gary Lawson and Brett Farmer. So don’t under estimate the importance of max piston pop up and min head thickness as it relates to compression / HP and track lap times!
As i already said above.........If milling is not allowed what you end up with is the top racers and engine builders sorting thru blocks and heads to find the best ones that will give you maximum compression.

.1 second lap time
How important is .1 second lap time in Sprint Racing.
Lets for example consider a 1 mile long sprint track with an average speed of 45 MPH. So for every lap that you are .1 seconds faster than you competition you will be 6.6 feet in front of him. For a 15 lap race that puts you 99 feet in front of your competition.
On a side note..........do you think even 1 HP is important in a 500 mile race with a 850 HP Nascar engine, let me just say the Cup engine builders would kill for another 1 HP!
It might be on a smaller scale but that's why the top engine builders are passionate about paying very close attention to detail and precision when building kart engines!

Additional things to consider before you jump ship from the current Animal BP engine.
There are thousands of these engines just sitting on the shelf collecting dust waiting to be raced again.
Probably the most important factor is does Briggs and Stratton racing support the 206 Super Stock program? Briggs Racing and their staff is the key supplier and supporter to the Animal engine, they need to agree and support 100% any new program, its their name and reputation on it!

Steve
www.Bakerracingengines.com
 
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Outstanding comparison Steve.
To me, this looks like a great start to putting the S.S., BP Animal and WF together.
Here’s were it can be fun. If your going to change the cam to C/R and pull start, why not just make it an open cam and stock head? 20lb springs would limit the size and duration of a cam that would work. 87 octane gas would limit the compression that would work, a 7100 rpm coil would help too. (Although, on the cost side, if you converting an animal not having to change coils would be a noticeable cost saving)
I think cylinder bore can be negotiated. I know for guys like Gary, that tenth is critical.....But, Gary’s class of driver is uhhhh....Well let’s say it doesn’t take long to call the role...For guys like me, on sprint track, my repeatability is decidedly lower so, that tenth is not nearly as critical ( I do have to say I was very proud NOT to be lapped by Gary and Scuba at Indy last year).

As far as Briggs support, if they’re supporting anything but the 206, I sure don’t see it. On the sprint end, the pro gas is all but dead. The only guys I know of running it a half a dozen guys in the Maxxis series. I would think, anything that helps them sell engines and parts would meet with their blessing (please no clutch talk)

Making the head and carb specs the same for both would be an excellent step. That’ll d make tech super easy.

if there’s anything I’m wrong about, I apologize but, I see a lot more points of commonality and simple solutions than roadblocks. I am looking forward to seeing your BP S.S. dyno and build comparison.
 
You might be on to something btjones.......you might consider adding the flat head and Clone engines in the mix.Sounds like it would be a fun and interesting day at the races! I might even break away to come watch that race. In the mean time you better get busy on the phone and try to find a race track or maybe a karting group that will adopt your racing program...........:unsure:
 
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