front stagger

S

shakenbake5

New member
Can someone please explain how increasing and decreasing front stagger will effect handling. I have been told more front stagger slows transfer. I have also been told more front stagger is like increasing cross which will speed transfer. Thanks
 
Think of stagger as a hill that weight has to climb. The more stagger, the steeper the hill and the harder it is for the weight to climb. As far as front stagger and handeling are concerned....too much front stagger can show up in a push from center off. That doesn't mean a push is THE result of too much front stagger. It's just a sign of ONE possible issue.

Cross is a fine tune adjustment used after the intial settings of a close set up that allows you to fine tune weight distribution bewtween the two right side tires.
 
i know i was just using the opertunity and jump in before al nunly did and made a post a half mile long talking about speadsheat
 
shakenbake5 said:
Can someone please explain how increasing and decreasing front stagger will effect handling. I have been told more front stagger slows transfer. I have also been told more front stagger is like increasing cross which will speed transfer. Thanks
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Decreasing stagger by putting on a smaller LF tire causes the spindle to be lowered. That's all it does.

How it will effect handling depends on everything else. A spread sheet and a whole ton of words are needed to explain more. Give us a specific location on the track or a specific on track problem and we could guess about what might happen, if you put a smaller LF tire on. And a guess is all you'll get.

... more front stagger is like increasing cross, ok sure ... will it increase transfer speed, just depends on what the definition of 'transfer speed', is.
 
team25 said:
i know i was just using the opertunity and jump in before al nunly did and made a post a half mile long talking about speadsheat
Click to expand...
when I found out about spreadsheets, 1982, my thought was; my prayers have been answered.
The spreadsheet is a very powerful tool, and if you don't know how to use one, you're missing out. And the ones who don't know how to use them, are usually the 1st to make disparaging remarks.
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
 
paulkish said:
Decreasing stagger by putting on a smaller LF tire causes the spindle to be lowered. That's all it does.

How it will effect handling depends on everything else. A spread sheet and a whole ton of words are needed to explain more. Give us a specific location on the track or a specific on track problem and we could guess about what might happen, if you put a smaller LF tire on. And a guess is all you'll get.

... more front stagger is like increasing cross, ok sure ... will it increase transfer speed, just depends on what the definition of 'transfer speed', is.
Click to expand...

A smaller LF tire to DECREASE stagger. Hmmmmmmm...........interesting. :)
 
I don't really worry much about front stagger. Almost everything that can be done with front stagger can be replicated with a different adjustment far easier than having lots of tires with different circumferences. Because of this and because of the already nearly insurmountable task of getting even one or two unique sets of tires working well, much less having to do so with lots of different size tires, I don't see much of anyone working with front stagger.

Todd
www.dynamicsofspeed.com
 
Ltg said:
I don't really worry much about front stagger. Almost everything that can be done with front stagger can be replicated with a different adjustment far easier than having lots of tires with different circumferences. Because of this and because of the already nearly insurmountable task of getting even one or two unique sets of tires working well, much less having to do so with lots of different size tires, I don't see much of anyone working with front stagger.

Todd
www.dynamicsofspeed.com
Click to expand...

True dat^^^^
 
I don't buy the weight uphill thing? Remember the weight of each tire is supported at the contact patch. Things that are effected are:
1. More stagger in front changes cross and chassis Rake which will effect the camber as well.
Also effected depending on if you increase the rf or decrease the lf to increase stagger is the center of gravity height of the front end. This can have an effect on weight transfer.( Higher cg transfers more weight)

Something worth mentioning is this:
It's important to remember there are several ways to achieve the optimal load at the RF , but the unloading of the LR is effected differently depending on way chosen.

I like to break it down into 3 categories ....
1. Static Load or load (weight on a given corner with kart sitting still on scales
2. Dynamic Load or weight of given corner At a point on the track when maximum weight transfer has happened.
3.Net Weight transfer .. Or the difference between static and dynamic numbers. This is effected directly by center of gravity heights and overall chassis designs as well as things like Camber and the effects of tire deflection as they induce chassis travel.

The point of all the above is this. you can achieve an increase in the Dynamic load at the RF by increasing cross with washers or increasing front stagger. It may seem that the kart transferred more weight but instead we simply got the load to its optimum point for maximum grip.

You could also increase the Dynamic load by raising the center of gravity height and or decreasing left side weight .
The last option however will unload the LR more as an end result....ain't this fun!
 
In addition to the static and dynamic load, the transient areas where the weight is shifting from one to the other and back are extremely important and practically impossible to measure or calculate in karting

Todd
www.dynamicsofspeed.com
 
MercerEngineering said:
I don't buy the weight uphill thing? Remember the weight of each tire is supported at the contact patch. Things that are effected are:
1. More stagger in front changes cross and chassis Rake which will effect the camber as well.
Also effected depending on if you increase the rf or decrease the lf to increase stagger is the center of gravity height of the front end. This can have an effect on weight transfer.( Higher cg transfers more weight)

Something worth mentioning is this:
It's important to remember there are several ways to achieve the optimal load at the RF , but the unloading of the LR is effected differently depending on way chosen.

I like to break it down into 3 categories ....
1. Static Load or load (weight on a given corner with kart sitting still on scales
2. Dynamic Load or weight of given corner At a point on the track when maximum weight transfer has happened.
3.Net Weight transfer .. Or the difference between static and dynamic numbers. This is effected directly by center of gravity heights and overall chassis designs as well as things like Camber and the effects of tire deflection as they induce chassis travel.

The point of all the above is this. you can achieve an increase in the Dynamic load at the RF by increasing cross with washers or increasing front stagger. It may seem that the kart transferred more weight but instead we simply got the load to its optimum point for maximum grip.

You could also increase the Dynamic load by raising the center of gravity height and or decreasing left side weight .
The last option however will unload the LR more as an end result....ain't this fun!
Click to expand...

Nice post. In addition to what you listed on changing stagger via the LF or the RF, and where it gets really complex and confusing to most everyone is the effects it has on the front roll center and front roll stiffness. When you start talking about changing the front roll center and increasing or decreasing front roll stiffness, most folks just kinda tune it out. They fail to see the significance of how the roll centers, roll stiffness and the location of the CG and the height of the CG all tie together. It gets somewhat overwhelming to some trying to figure this all out. That makes it much more simple to just set the front stagger and adjust elsewhere as Todd mentioned.
 
Man I'm like a kid in a candy store! I was away from karting for about 15 years making a living with my company , Mercer Race Car Engineering. My main expertiece was in suspension dynamics, with a focus on Coil Bind and Bump Stop type setups as well as Roll Center Design and Analysis. Fast forward now, my little boy just turned 6 and wants to go racing! He said Santa could bring his safety gear , but I had to build his go kart! Lol Anyway I am so excited now , even though I ran good in karts before and always had an understanding for setups most didn't, I'm blown away with all the realizations I'm having that we're always there but I just didn't understand before! In working with data acquisition systems , and pull down rigs I you realize that everything revolves around weight transfer , load, and the timing of those events! Now so many things that people said about karts being unpredictable in their adjustments are like, ,,,!!!Hello Light Bulb!!!
 
My personal feelings on stagger are, that everyone over thinks it. Really if you have the numbers in the kart you want for that given track, what is a 1/8 or a 1/4 going to do at the track. If you change tires to obtain you stagger that you feel may help you, are the changes from the stagger or because you have different tires with different grip even though the same prep. If you heat the same set to shrink or enlarge them, is the changes in stagger what you feel changed the handling or is it because the hour it took to change your stagger and the track has now changed. you will never know at the track most likely on that given day. I do think different tracks produce different results with the overall numbers in your kart and set up that you come to the track with, but the average person in karting is wasting his time to try and change it at the track or that given day with the numbers he came with. Tires and prep on that day at the track will either increase speed with proper selection or decrease speed with improper tire selection.. while at the track would it not be wiser to reduce left side by a few, or add a tad of nose, change tire pressure, the things you can do in less then a minute and go right back out and try it before the tracks changes, and on the same tires. or even just change ties, Then you have the whole day trying things and when the sun goes down and the track is slower, you still most likely will be on different tires with the prep you feel will work, with more grip. So save your time, and re scale with different numbers next time you go to that track. Most likely camber or castor will help more then anything with the set up you came with besides tires.
 
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