paulkish
old fart
I'm not sure I understand "forward bite". I'm going to try posting about it to see if others agree with me or will tell me where and why I'm thinking wrong about it.
I wrote a reply using ideas about it in another thread and I copied them here and added to it. I'm hoping for a, "yeah I think your right about it" or "your close but here's where you go a stray" or "your totally wrong and this is the way it is". ...
thanks in advance
paul
______________________________
Forward bite is only an issue once acceleration starts, somewhere from mid corner on. My theory explains the normal use of the rear tires on a staggered solid axle, because each rear tire has a different surface speed.
It goes you need to load or have the LR loaded going in so it can act as an anchor while your normally slowing down and doing your turning in towards the middle of the corner. You then complete both the slowing down and turning your going to do going into the corner. And you usually try to do it traveling up the bank of the track storing energy for up coming acceleration. This can only occur because the RR tire is larger and it's surface speed is faster then the LR tire's surface speed.
You will then if possible will roll the corner some after slightly accelerating above your entry speed, in as close to an arc as possible. Doing so will allow you to maintain a speed slightly above entry; or you will immediately begin your acceleration to exit. Forward bite on track problems only occur after acceleration starts.
The fix I understand when there is a "forward bite" on track problem, is so you can apply more acceleration without pushing.
I think forward bite problems are not generally about having too much weight and grip on the LR, but about not enough weight and grip on the RR, to cause it to be able to out accelerate the LR as needed.
I say "as needed" because if you get too much acceleration out of the RR, then the same problem can occur except it's because of the RR wanting to go straight and not being able to made to turn by the front tires.
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A push mid corner out is usually all about not having enough bite at the RR. The fix usually involves taking something away from the LR. But you do not have to take anything away from the LR to fix it, if you can get enough bite put into the RR to cause it to out accelerate the LR.
I have to add here that this is all available grip and available hp dependent. You will never have unlimited grip and unlimited hp and you will always be at the limit of both hp and grip or needing more of one or the other. And since you can never have both rear tires gripping unless your stagger combined with slip ratio and slip angle, happens to exactly match the radius of the track, one tire or the other or both must always be slipping. That means with a staggered solid axle it's generally a given that one tire or the other must be slipping and all your setup is to control when each grips and slips. If they are both slipping then it's about controlling and maximizing the slip ratios of each, to make the axle roll in the direction you want to go.
From mid corner out after you start acceleration it's about being able to move enough weight or apply enough weight to the RR, so it's larger diameter can out accelerate the LR. If you don't get enough weight and grip on the RR so it can, then it will push because forward bite from the LR, will make it go straighter then you want to go.
The net of this is if you can get enough grip out of the fronts to over come the excessive forward bite from the rear, it eats HP and speed mid corner off. If you can't then it pushes and it eats speed because you have to slow down or drift out too much, or hit the wall.
__________________________________
I'm adding this to the end of my thoughts to help those who come from the "real race car" world, to understand the difference in our LTO world. I think in my above writing if you would replace the RR being able to out accelerate the LR, with unloading the inside rear it would read about fixing over steer mid corner out. The major difference between LTO and "real race cars" is in the ability to cause the RR to out accelerate the LR. "Real race cars" do not have that ability. If you come from the "real race car" world and cannot comprehend the possibility of the "outside rear" out accelerating the "inside rear", you cannot understand LTO's.
thanks for reading and I hope to get feed back ...
paul
I wrote a reply using ideas about it in another thread and I copied them here and added to it. I'm hoping for a, "yeah I think your right about it" or "your close but here's where you go a stray" or "your totally wrong and this is the way it is". ...
thanks in advance
paul
______________________________
Forward bite is only an issue once acceleration starts, somewhere from mid corner on. My theory explains the normal use of the rear tires on a staggered solid axle, because each rear tire has a different surface speed.
It goes you need to load or have the LR loaded going in so it can act as an anchor while your normally slowing down and doing your turning in towards the middle of the corner. You then complete both the slowing down and turning your going to do going into the corner. And you usually try to do it traveling up the bank of the track storing energy for up coming acceleration. This can only occur because the RR tire is larger and it's surface speed is faster then the LR tire's surface speed.
You will then if possible will roll the corner some after slightly accelerating above your entry speed, in as close to an arc as possible. Doing so will allow you to maintain a speed slightly above entry; or you will immediately begin your acceleration to exit. Forward bite on track problems only occur after acceleration starts.
The fix I understand when there is a "forward bite" on track problem, is so you can apply more acceleration without pushing.
I think forward bite problems are not generally about having too much weight and grip on the LR, but about not enough weight and grip on the RR, to cause it to be able to out accelerate the LR as needed.
I say "as needed" because if you get too much acceleration out of the RR, then the same problem can occur except it's because of the RR wanting to go straight and not being able to made to turn by the front tires.
____________________________________
A push mid corner out is usually all about not having enough bite at the RR. The fix usually involves taking something away from the LR. But you do not have to take anything away from the LR to fix it, if you can get enough bite put into the RR to cause it to out accelerate the LR.
I have to add here that this is all available grip and available hp dependent. You will never have unlimited grip and unlimited hp and you will always be at the limit of both hp and grip or needing more of one or the other. And since you can never have both rear tires gripping unless your stagger combined with slip ratio and slip angle, happens to exactly match the radius of the track, one tire or the other or both must always be slipping. That means with a staggered solid axle it's generally a given that one tire or the other must be slipping and all your setup is to control when each grips and slips. If they are both slipping then it's about controlling and maximizing the slip ratios of each, to make the axle roll in the direction you want to go.
From mid corner out after you start acceleration it's about being able to move enough weight or apply enough weight to the RR, so it's larger diameter can out accelerate the LR. If you don't get enough weight and grip on the RR so it can, then it will push because forward bite from the LR, will make it go straighter then you want to go.
The net of this is if you can get enough grip out of the fronts to over come the excessive forward bite from the rear, it eats HP and speed mid corner off. If you can't then it pushes and it eats speed because you have to slow down or drift out too much, or hit the wall.
__________________________________
I'm adding this to the end of my thoughts to help those who come from the "real race car" world, to understand the difference in our LTO world. I think in my above writing if you would replace the RR being able to out accelerate the LR, with unloading the inside rear it would read about fixing over steer mid corner out. The major difference between LTO and "real race cars" is in the ability to cause the RR to out accelerate the LR. "Real race cars" do not have that ability. If you come from the "real race car" world and cannot comprehend the possibility of the "outside rear" out accelerating the "inside rear", you cannot understand LTO's.
thanks for reading and I hope to get feed back ...
paul