racing promotor
Moderator
Is it the same in practice ?
Jr2 Driver needing more weight xfer to RR?
- Thread starter 1fasttiller
- Start date
ColeAchey
Member
Yes, that to me is the most direct adjustment but I would decrease camber first if it were me, and still possibly neutralize the rf spindle to get the cross around 58-60. Those adjustments would help balance everything without really tightening the kart.
1fasttiller
Member
Thanks for the info guys!!! All good stuff! I hope to try some of it out this weekend as it is our first season opener points race
racing promotor
Moderator
If your doing a lot of winning anyway and are still pretty fast just take 1/4" of rear stagger out of it to confirm If it stabilized it, If it cures it run it until your competition catches up, then I would apply this info to a total Re-Scale.
Also IF it's the same in practice If it were me first I would move the LR out a 1/2" first just to prove to myself what's up.
Good Luck !!
Also IF it's the same in practice If it were me first I would move the LR out a 1/2" first just to prove to myself what's up.
Good Luck !!
1fasttiller
Member
Yes it is usually the same in practice, but the track is pretty wet so we normally go out on very low air for first practice and that seems to help.
I'll pull the LR out some and see what happens, I've been curious to try that anyway as I've never been a fan of running the rear so tight to the frame.
- - - Updated - - -
Paul- the seat is about as vertical as I can get it. I did that intentionally to get some weight transfer out of his little butt!
paulkish
old fart
after I wrote all the garbage below I realized your talking about loose off not pushing off. but I spent so much time writing it I ain't going to just delete it. ... heck might even fix it? ... nawwwww
maybe I'll delete it later
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Ok another dumb idea which is just me with no experience doing it by the numbers. ...
You got a chassis, you got tires for grip to make the chassis work and you have on track forces.
Sometimes per the on track forces available from speed and weight to do stuff for you, instead of beating your head against a wall trying to make weight go where you want it to, you have to think in terms of doing something to make the chassis easier to operate.
I was taught that by a well know racer many years ago at Lincoln when we were talking about getting weight to the LR corner.
In your case i'm thinking you need to make it easier to get weight to the RF corner. To do it and to also do what was suggested above which I quoted, raise up the RF spindle to make the chassis easier to mechanically work putting weight to the RF from the LR. Maybe your RF is down physically on the track too hard weight or no weight, it's just sitting there on the track. And you don't have the forces to push more weight from the LR to the RF so lift the RF up, so it can get done easier.
Not being a scale person but won't that both lower nose and maybe even raise LR weight? But even though the LR weight goes up you also made it easier to get the LR weight moving. and ??????? proly dumb. ...
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You already have grip up front or with you driver sitting on the LR you wouldn't be able to get it into the corner. I think you also have a problem that you can't roll the first part of the corner because having the fronts being able to fight the rears successfully is causing you to slow down to where you want to start accelerating instead of rolling to where you want to start accelerating. Then when you start to accelerate wanting to go straight from turning, because your fronts give up on you because their no longer able to win the fight for direction with the rear tires, the kart goes where the rears are pointing. ... just added proly wrong again thoughts
maybe I'll delete it later
__________________________
Ok another dumb idea which is just me with no experience doing it by the numbers. ...
You got a chassis, you got tires for grip to make the chassis work and you have on track forces.
Sometimes per the on track forces available from speed and weight to do stuff for you, instead of beating your head against a wall trying to make weight go where you want it to, you have to think in terms of doing something to make the chassis easier to operate.
I was taught that by a well know racer many years ago at Lincoln when we were talking about getting weight to the LR corner.
In your case i'm thinking you need to make it easier to get weight to the RF corner. To do it and to also do what was suggested above which I quoted, raise up the RF spindle to make the chassis easier to mechanically work putting weight to the RF from the LR. Maybe your RF is down physically on the track too hard weight or no weight, it's just sitting there on the track. And you don't have the forces to push more weight from the LR to the RF so lift the RF up, so it can get done easier.
Not being a scale person but won't that both lower nose and maybe even raise LR weight? But even though the LR weight goes up you also made it easier to get the LR weight moving. and ??????? proly dumb. ...
__________________
You already have grip up front or with you driver sitting on the LR you wouldn't be able to get it into the corner. I think you also have a problem that you can't roll the first part of the corner because having the fronts being able to fight the rears successfully is causing you to slow down to where you want to start accelerating instead of rolling to where you want to start accelerating. Then when you start to accelerate wanting to go straight from turning, because your fronts give up on you because their no longer able to win the fight for direction with the rear tires, the kart goes where the rears are pointing. ... just added proly wrong again thoughts
paulkish
old fart
I went back and read your first post again being stuff I quickly scanned/read on here for a fix seemed to want to be stuff to fix a push off.
Are you sure it's loose coming off and it's not a 4 wheel drift?
I'm now not seeing staying on the LR being a cause of loose off and a bunch of ????? on that. I see the LR giving up and then the RR goes out making it loose but not in your case where "IF" you are always on the LR then the fronts have to be fighting with the backs for control of direction going in. If they are and if it really is loose coming off then weight has to have left the LR. Loose means your RR gave up or is loosing grip. Generally the RR's only chance of giving up is if the LR is already not able to work. I guess the loaded LR can be being over worked and goes out on you but then I'd expect you to also be having problems with an occasional snap loose. Sounds now to me like your just drifting up the track coming off, not loose. Depends on how much room the driver has until the wall comes close, weather they might try turning left or countersteering until they can catch the kart.
.... yeah all more dumb stuff... sorry
Are you sure it's loose coming off and it's not a 4 wheel drift?
I'm now not seeing staying on the LR being a cause of loose off and a bunch of ????? on that. I see the LR giving up and then the RR goes out making it loose but not in your case where "IF" you are always on the LR then the fronts have to be fighting with the backs for control of direction going in. If they are and if it really is loose coming off then weight has to have left the LR. Loose means your RR gave up or is loosing grip. Generally the RR's only chance of giving up is if the LR is already not able to work. I guess the loaded LR can be being over worked and goes out on you but then I'd expect you to also be having problems with an occasional snap loose. Sounds now to me like your just drifting up the track coming off, not loose. Depends on how much room the driver has until the wall comes close, weather they might try turning left or countersteering until they can catch the kart.
.... yeah all more dumb stuff... sorry
1fasttiller
Member
Makes sense. I've just been so afraid to get a push as I was warned by many to "not load that LR on a prowler" I need to add another 20lbs to him to meet MIN weight for Jr2 at many other tracks so I'll go ahead and put at least 10lbs on the rear/LR area and rescale.
Thanks.
1fasttiller
Member
We're on Vega Yellow MCS's. I've got them pretty soft with a little GOAT and using TT Mint for conditioning and bite.
Funny thing is, the competition (all other kids in his class) are on VERY soft tires, these things are like gumballs. We are several points harder than any of them but usually outrun every one of them at 95% of the races at this track.
I agree with XXX ,the simplest way to look at it is ,on exit the r/r is out driving the l/r causing to much rotation-loose off.At the same time you are not low on crosswieght and you are winning.I would be hard pressed to make a big change ,a little stagger or caster changes would be my first changes.
racing promotor
Moderator
Because of the RTW not being normal with BOTH in tight, I would have to prove to myself it's an Exit issue because odds are much greater it's an Entry to middle issue.
On a big track to much nose will show up most always loose before apex not past it, I AGREE closer 46 % nose would be the way to go but only with a total re-scale and first thing I would Adjust is the RTW then scale it.
On a big track to much nose will show up most always loose before apex not past it, I AGREE closer 46 % nose would be the way to go but only with a total re-scale and first thing I would Adjust is the RTW then scale it.
1fasttiller
Member
I went ahead and pulled the LR out last night to the MIN suggested spec from Prowler, moved it a total of 5/8". We'll see what happens tonight!
racing promotor
Moderator
That will help confirm what's up If it's better it was an entry issue, If it's worse it's an exit issue, Just make sure your tires and air is same as normal for your practice run.
Good Luck !!
1fasttiller
Member
That is the plan. Less variables the better!
Supposed to have 8-10 karts in Jr2 tonight for the season opener so it should be fun! Thanks for all your help!
1fasttiller
Member
UPDATE- 3/4/19
I slid the LR out approximately 5/8" but we had to put a new LR tire on as our old one had NO dot left and started showing signs of blistering after last weekends practice session. I didn't want to chance it on a big race night so we opted to throw a new MCS on.
First practice session he said it was much faster than usual, I swore I seen it pushing on entry this time but my son said no. He felt that it had much more grip and corner speed than normal. We started 3rd in heat #2 and won it by a decent amount. He started outside pole in the main (11 karts) and got a bad start so he slid to 3rd, by lap 5 he was going under the leader for a pass and the leader deliberately dumped him. They decided to let him stay out front and sent the other kid to the rear for his driving. We led the rest of the race although by the final 2-3 laps the 2nd place kart was very close and tried going under him but couldn't. After the race my son said definite push as the race went on. He said it was more and more difficult to hold his line toward the end.
Now I know my testing is non valid and thinking the looseness has been that worn LR all along. I did verify the tire was the same diameter so our stagger didn't change. We also did not have any internal prep in this tire as I picked it up at the track from the parts trailer and just wiped a few coats of tracktac mint and HL2 on it.
Overall very exciting weekend, certainly a proud dad moment as this was his 8th time in a kart and 5th win!
I slid the LR out approximately 5/8" but we had to put a new LR tire on as our old one had NO dot left and started showing signs of blistering after last weekends practice session. I didn't want to chance it on a big race night so we opted to throw a new MCS on.
First practice session he said it was much faster than usual, I swore I seen it pushing on entry this time but my son said no. He felt that it had much more grip and corner speed than normal. We started 3rd in heat #2 and won it by a decent amount. He started outside pole in the main (11 karts) and got a bad start so he slid to 3rd, by lap 5 he was going under the leader for a pass and the leader deliberately dumped him. They decided to let him stay out front and sent the other kid to the rear for his driving. We led the rest of the race although by the final 2-3 laps the 2nd place kart was very close and tried going under him but couldn't. After the race my son said definite push as the race went on. He said it was more and more difficult to hold his line toward the end.
Now I know my testing is non valid and thinking the looseness has been that worn LR all along. I did verify the tire was the same diameter so our stagger didn't change. We also did not have any internal prep in this tire as I picked it up at the track from the parts trailer and just wiped a few coats of tracktac mint and HL2 on it.
Overall very exciting weekend, certainly a proud dad moment as this was his 8th time in a kart and 5th win!