Kart race engines vs. the big displacement....

Alot of debate has been raging on many threads about conventional kart race engines vs big displacement , big singles. Years back, many were ready to fold up and say karting would never be the same when the Wankel began its domination. Then the BRC 150ww debuted and soon eyes were opened that not all was lost. As the big singles began to develop and chassis such as the Ultramax Excentric showed its abillity to handle the big horsepower, then the mix has become quite interesting.
NO ONE SINGLE POWER PLANT IS DOMINATING.... and will not.
The small displacement 2-strokes are STILL showing they are and will continue to be a threat. The reason for this is two fold. Jackshafts have the ability to greatly enhance torque with it MECHANICAL LEVERAGE. MECHANICAL LEVERAGE is superior in its ability to take a small amount of input and transfer it into big torque. Another principle of the the small displacement 2-stroke is OVER-REV. OVER-REV is and always has been a priciple of two-strokes that make them superior. Europe has always known this and with alll there GREEN energy and Enviromental controls they still continue to strive towards the small displacement high reving engines.
Now- That being said, how does this translate on the track?

You would think 10-15 more peak horses would blow by the little motors. Doesnt happen. OVER-REV (ability to continue the gain rpm past peak horsepower, vs hitting a brick wall and gaining no rpm) As long as a kart is gaining rpm it is INCREASING IN SPEED. When a motor stops gaining rpm, the kart actually feels as though it puts on the brakes. Another principle seen here is ACCELERATION and MOMENTUM. Current kart drive trains are limited in its ability to translate torque into forward motion. One of the draw backs one must always consider is drivetrain WEIGHT. Currently, jackshafts and dry disc clutches do somethng real well though- Provide and light weight, quick ability to allow the small displacement motor to QUICKLY rev to peak TORQUE and increase in RPM rapidlly. The big torque motors struggle here. WHy?? Weight of the rotating assembly of the motor and the ability of the current drivetrain to transmit the kart into acceleration. That is why the small engines consistently bust off the line with the big motors.
The smalll, high reving motors utilize the current jackshaft and ability to run low gear ratios to not only match the big torque motors but in many times beat them ion acceleration. Then as the kart increase in acceleration a SLING SHOT affect through the peak power band increases the speed of the kart on top end way beyond its peak horsepower band.
So what does this mean???
Until the large displacement motors gain ability to overev allowing them to run lower gear ratios they will still be at a slight disadvantage in my opinion on tracks that are 1/5 mile and smaller. There are exceptions of course, but until someone consistently dominates I will stand on my theory.
So- Continue to builld those BULLER Sudams and 116'S. They will do the job. And of course, the BRC 150WW is still in my opinion the best package available. We have never felt outperformed in the speed department.
In closing- NOBODY FREAK OUT: The 15,000 jawa kart is no more competitive than the 116 reedjet on a 1/5 mile and smaller track. However, when the big displacement engines learn that the SAME principles that allow the small motors to be quick ALSO applies to them, and they tune and setup towards that, then things will change. But until then, we race on.......
 
My thoughts........the 250 2 stroke Engines are going to be the reigning supreme engine once all the bugs worked out.......and I'm a 4 cycle man.......cost being the main influence.......crank and rod assembly $200.00 or less........JMO......
 
The only bad part about the 250s are their driveability on the smaller tracks.

Yes they are. As long as your clutch engagement/pipe are correct for the situation. I Had Jack B yz250 on a 1/8mile and not only was drivable but I felt the extra weight actually got me in the track better. Until I had what seems to be a reed hang up I was able to drive that kinda power on what I consider a shirt track. Jmo.
 
The 250 is just as drive able on small tracks, Its more to what Chris speaks of in over rev and kart specific engineering and principles. I completely agree with Chris's premise and theory The BRC is the target of what I'm trying to accomplish only at a more affordable cost to the average racer. This is why I'm focused on the MX 250 engine converted. My focus is on developing a kart specific method that's already been achieved in the traditional karting 2 cycle engines. I'm using the exact same principles the exact same methods and just making parts to adapt a affordable line of ready made race driven parts in the MX line.

The MX 250 will out accelerate a 125/131/150 center off with ease. It's now about finding that sweet spot of pipe design, port timing and shape and working through the bugs of making it all stay put and be as dependable and reliable as the current small bore engines.

I also believe approaching the big 4 cycle engines in the same manner will accomplish the same end result. A small tight kart specific reliable affordable design, using easy to find affordable to purchase MX 250F/450f engine components. Using the same over rev philosophy in the high rpm capability of the modern MX designed 4 strokes both in the 250F and 450F engines will bring more racers, More sponsors, More fan's to open modified kart racing than has ever been seen in the history of kart racing.

This is going to be one of the most exciting years in racing and it's only going to get better.

And like Chris That's my theory and I'm sticking to it LOL.
 
The proof will be in the pudding this year more and more people are buying bigger displacement engines. I think the smaller engines will require more of a weight break to be able to race with the big ones in the years to come.. Corner speed by a few teams and a 50# to 75# (sometimes 100#) weight break are the only thing keeping them competitive now. People are working on handling with the big displacement engines and will get better as they go with more guys riding them it will happen quicker IMO... Any engine that's has a gear ratio has MECHANICAL LEVRAGE if you take the small 2 cycle with low torque numbers and run it through a jack shaft and then take a big 4 stroke with high torque numbers and run it through one gear change the axle still see's more torque with the larger 4 stroke engine than with the smaller high revving 2 stroke plus the 4 stroke are sill capable of turning 11,000 RPM and making a real nice torque curve... The 250cc 2 stroke will be the last shot for the guys that want to run a 2 stroke IMO but they are limited on RPM more so than the smaller ones so the OVER REV factor will not be that big of deal IMO... What BIG races in 2013 did the BRCWW win or sit on the pole at? Competitive yes they are but an easy package to race at a National level with maybe not as much as some other engine packages. JMO I'm sure somebody will bash me for but I gave it anyway..... :)
 
The small displacement 2-strokes are STILL showing they are and will continue to be a threat. The reason for this is two fold. Jackshafts have the ability to greatly enhance torque with it MECHANICAL LEVERAGE. MECHANICAL LEVERAGE is superior in its ability to take a small amount of input and transfer it into big torque.
Your whole premise is wrong. Once the clutch locks up, the horsepower at the axle is exactly the same as the horsepower at the engine. Yes there is more torque because of the gear ratio, but the axle is turning slower than the engine. Torque x RPM = HP. Horsepower is a measure of work. Torque is a measure of force.
And if anything, a jackshaft is using up some horsepower.
The only reason for the jackshaft is because, on the small oval track, a two cycle needs a much lower gear ratio to get into its power band. A two cycle, at least the kart specific kind, will always run best in a much higher RPM Range. And so, even though a jackshaft costs some power to the axle, because the engine is in its power been, with a lower ratio to the axle, a gain in horsepower, because of the higher RPM, the small loss is worth it.
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
 
Any engine that's has a gear ratio has MECHANICAL LEVRAGE if you take the small 2 cycle with low torque numbers and run it through a jack shaft and then take a big 4 stroke with high torque numbers and run it through one gear change the axle still see's more torque with the larger 4 stroke engine than with the smaller high revving 2 stroke plus the 4 stroke are sill capable of turning 11,000 RPM and making a real nice torque curve... The 250cc 2 stroke will be the last shot for the guys that want to run a 2 stroke IMO but they are limited on RPM more so than the smaller ones so the OVER REV factor will not be that big of deal IMO...
There’s an inline 250 (125x2), (I’m getting old name will not come to me) with five speeds, and when somebody puts that on one of your karts, I think you’ll see what a two cycle can do.
I could be wrong but I don’t think so.

Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
 
There’s an inline 250 (125x2), (I’m getting old name will not come to me) with five speeds, and when somebody puts that on one of your karts, I think you’ll see what a two cycle can do.
I could be wrong but I don’t think so.

Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.

The only one I think the 4 strokes will have to deal with is the GAS GAS 250.. an inline 250 (125x2) is not legal in the UAS at this time.
 
You could buy 4 Jawa 500cc model 889 from Cody with flat carbs around $4,500 and still have money left for a set of tires , instead of one of Riley BRC250fe for $18,500 for his motor at his old prices.
 
Complete Engine with Electronic Power Valve $18,500.00
02-00-002 Complete Engine with Pneumatic Power Valve $18,000.00
02-00-003 Complete Engine without Power Valve $17,500.00


http://www.brceng.com/250fe.html heck give me 2 of these bad boys ;)

that's close to what a jawa setup just sold for. George the motor is only part of the cost u have mount jackshaft clutch and fuel injection alone is 1000.00 plus the know how to put it all together
 
Your whole premise is wrong. Once the clutch locks up, the horsepower at the axle is exactly the same as the horsepower at the engine. Yes there is more torque because of the gear ratio, but the axle is turning slower than the engine. Torque x RPM = HP. Horsepower is a measure of work. Torque is a measure of force.
And if anything, a jackshaft is using up some horsepower.
The only reason for the jackshaft is because, on the small oval track, a two cycle needs a much lower gear ratio to get into its power band. A two cycle, at least the kart specific kind, will always run best in a much higher RPM Range. And so, even though a jackshaft costs some power to the axle, because the engine is in its power been, with a lower ratio to the axle, a gain in horsepower, because of the higher RPM, the small loss is worth it.
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.

I think chris had it correct al. He stated the jackshaft multiplys the torque of the smaller engine allowing it to perform with the bigger displacement engines. Much like a block and tackle allows a limited human being to lift (force) much heavier weights than one could lift 1:1. Just the way I read and understand the physics.
 
I think chris had it correct al. He stated the jackshaft multiplys the torque of the smaller engine allowing it to perform with the bigger displacement engines. Much like a block and tackle allows a limited human being to lift (force) much heavier weights than one could lift 1:1. Just the way I read and understand the physics.

If two engines have the same gear ratio but one has twice the torque, it will still have twice the torque after going through a multiplier.
 
Hey ottrocket44 , how did you do at Daytona. Was your Jawa 500cc model 884 or 889 version long stroke or short ? What frame is your kart? Can you post pic's
 
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