left side percentages and cross relations

BANDIT 518 said:
I understand as much as I can what JWD said. Im ok with understanding that (or trying to)
What Im asking is if I have my kart on scales and the percentages read 43 front and they call for 44 is that good enough?
Im asking is close close enough or does it have to be dead nuts on
If I have 52 left and it calls for 54 is that close enough?
Are the chassis fabricators numbers gospel or is the room for +/- ??
I know Im learning and not too sure one scaling
I hope this isn't a stupid heres your sign question

Ray
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I thought I already answered that, Left and Nose with in .5 %, Cross with in 2 %, I would still take time to get them closer.
 
I'm particular with my nose and my leftside. I want them where I want them. With cross its an "at least" number. I want "at least" 64% if it's 65, 66, 67 I don't care but if it's 63.8, I do care. And with all my numbers if I err, I err to the high side.
 
64 was a generic number pulled out of thin air.

With a modern chassis I personally would stay between 62 and 68 pretty much anywhere. I've been told it's not workable in the northeast. But I was also told it wasn't workable in the midwest (the pole by 4/10s and walk away win at a Heartland National on a track made of topsoil that had 8" of rain race week said otherwise).

Of course I don't think they had considered the tires I intended to use either. I saw the looks on their faces when I revealed the tires. They had never even imagined such a tire could exist.

A lot of things are tried, failed and given up on because of a lack of details.

A lot of new ideas are shelved simply on the "fast enough" principle. I tried, it was no faster/a bit slower than my current setup and I've got a tenth on the field now, so why bother?
 
alvin l nunley said:
Seems to me, if someone from your track tells you what they should be, then that's what they should be. On the other hand, someone who's never been to your track can only give you a starting point.

No matter where you set it, if it works it's right, if it doesn't it's not. And even if it works, playing around with that percentages is called learning. You change something, if it works better, you learned something. If it doesn't work, of course you've learned something else.

I would think, if you get it close, and it works, then close enough is good. If it doesn't work, just the opposite. In any case, even if it's right on, and it doesn't work, then you've got to try something else, real simple.
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Then there's this other variable called tires and prep when it comes to dirt racing....the numbers could be right, and the wrong tires/prep would make it seem like they are completely wrong sometimes. But get the right numbers and the right tires on any chassis and it will be a world of difference over the right numbers and tires that are "close"
 
JWD said:
64 was a generic number pulled out of thin air.

With a modern chassis I personally would stay between 62 and 68 pretty much anywhere. I've been told it's not workable in the northeast. But I was also told it wasn't workable in the midwest (the pole by 4/10s and walk away win at a Heartland National on a track made of topsoil that had 8" of rain race week said otherwise).

Of course I don't think they had considered the tires I intended to use either. I saw the looks on their faces when I revealed the tires. They had never even imagined such a tire could exist.

A lot of things are tried, failed and given up on because of a lack of details.

A lot of new ideas are shelved simply on the "fast enough" principle. I tried, it was no faster/a bit slower than my current setup and I've got a tenth on the field now, so why bother?
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Joey what year chassis would you consider modern?
 
The 62+ cross karts begin around 2000 with the Shadow zx1. There are really 2 generations since then but that would be the start of the "modern era".
 
Joey, would I be correct to say the modern era began >after< the Atomic plate front end idea to lock in front end adjustments in and cut in stone, migrated to putting plate front ends out on a tube like they use to be, so they can flex, as the start of the new era?

... and then actually solid into the new era when, ... along with front ends, ... the LR went to Z bar and then to a sort of a flex'o matic LR?

... geeeeeeeee, I hope I'll get a yes on that. ... :) but knowin my past experience thunking about what I think Joey might be thunkin about, ... I got to be way out and wrong bout it. ... but hope I ain't, cause, it will make me feel really good and make my already big head swell up. Wow I got a chance to have a swell head. ... somehow I don't know if that's good or bad. ... ?????????
 
I think we got a gauntlet in 98.We had one of the first ones sold.We pre ordered ours at kart expo in hickory.It had the plate,L plate,heim,washer design.My question is who did wiggins copy that design from?Or as phantom logo says are they the innovator not the duplicator.I know the gauntlet sucked i'm wondering who invented the heim front end.You would think as much as that design helped karting he would advertise phantom invented it more.But then again I don't think phantom needs any help selling chassis.
 
I think I've brought up the Atomic chassis plate thing before on here and probably Joey has shot it down before telling us the real story behind plate front ends.

Also, on the same day many years ago at the Komplex, a kind karter told me about his secret chain lube. I've never told anyone about what he told me he used to lube chains. It was different and I like to tell all I hear, but for what ever reason I don't think I've ever passed on his secret. I wan't too now, but I ain't going to do it.

By the way, I've been privileged to attend many kart tracks down south often over the years, because I use to go to school in Atlanta, two or three times a year, sometimes for over a month. this year my wife and I drove through Atlanta on our way back from Florida and when we got to Windy Hill, since spending so much time there in the past, I felt at home. ... :)
 
rd09 said:
I think we got a gauntlet in 98.We had one of the first ones sold.We pre ordered ours at kart expo in hickory.It had the plate,L plate,heim,washer design.My question is who did wiggins copy that design from?Or as phantom logo says are they the innovator not the duplicator.I know the gauntlet sucked i'm wondering who invented the heim front end.You would think as much as that design helped karting he would advertise phantom invented it more.But then again I don't think phantom needs any help selling chassis.
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CKI had the heims on the Laser AV2. It was an awesome kart and really hammered Banshee sales. That's why Phantom rushed the Gauntlet to market with bad front end geometry.

If you cut the LF corner and reset it, the Gauntlet was a pretty stout chassis. One of the fastest karts I ever raced against was a reconstructed Gauntlet. I think the weekly bounty on the guy running it got all the way to $2700. But the factory version SUCKED.

Fortunately for Phantom while in the midst of the Gauntlet debacle Shadow introduced the ZX1 which changed the whole game.
 
A buddy of mine was hard to outrun over here on a re worked gauntlet as well. My dad was friends with a guy who built a kart called a Rocker. We rode them for years and they were the 2nd karts that I seen with the heims after the Laser AV-1. But he actually got his plates and heims and stuff from Competition. Then I remember the AV-2. Im sure there were plenty others around that time. I remember winning a race over here in tn in the mid- late 90's on one and people looing at my front end like it was an F-1 car..
 
So if increasing cross always tightens a kart, why is higher cross generally used for high bite tracks and lower cross used for low bite tracks? Are you recommending to try lower cross in high bite situations JWD, keeping all things equal? Or just that a different set of tires is all that is needed?
 
blh0728 said:
So if increasing cross always tightens a kart, why is higher cross generally used for high bite tracks and lower cross used for low bite tracks? Are you recommending to try lower cross in high bite situations JWD, keeping all things equal? Or just that a different set of tires is all that is needed?
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All things are never equal or the same. Higher cross is generally used with higher left in high grip situations and lower cross is generally used in combination with lower left in low grip situations. It's the left that's actually key to the puzzle.

Most of the time a different set of tires is all that is needed. But in that rare situation where you have maxxed out the tire game and you have maxxed out your leftside weight and you are actually tight, then yes, take cross out.

side note here: I've been to pretty much every high bite track in the country at one point or another on karts much less free than those built today and I can not recall ever finding myself in the above mentioned situation. We were still wiping tires at Carnesville with the same baseline setup we ran local Friday night shows at Woodleaf.

The geometry was significantly different, the tires were way different, air pressure was changed, chemicals we were wiping were much different, but the baseline left and cross were identical.

Keep in mind, this setup information is somewhat dated, I haven't tuned a kart at a major event in 4 or 5 years. But physics is still physics and the basic principles still apply with regard to weight management and what is actually happening to the chassis.
 
I was always a little confused but post number 3 on page 1, changed everything for me. It summed it all up and i have gotten faster every week listening to that. Thank you so much, from some body who lives by the motto K.I.S.S
(keep it simple stupid)
 
JWD said:
My personal belief is the left and cross relationship is meaningless and Mike made a leap to explain something he did not understand. He's guilty of that several times.

Cross always Always ALWAYS tightens the chassis. Did I say always enough times ALWAYS? ALWAYS!!

Now you say "well I know that's not true, whenever I...." to which I say ALWAYS TIGHTENS

Then you say "But...." and I say ALWAYS!!!!

Then you get smart and say "Well how come when I...." Then finally before I set you on fire for not understanding the meaning of ALWAYS I teach you how cross works and you go "oh, well now that makes perfect sense! cross always tightens" and you live.

What you are managing with cross is the relationship between the RF and RR tires (bet you didn't realize that). In extreme low cross situations the RR is king. Lowering cross will take the LR out of the kart reducing drag and freeing the rear (pay attention this is important) of the kart up. The more cross you add the more drag you get and the tighter the rear (still paying attention yes?) becomes.

Now each time we add cross the RF gets a little stronger and the RR gets a little weaker. Eventually you get to the supposed dead zone where neither tire is strong enough to dominate the kart and cross adjustments really don't accomplish anything. But finally we reach a point where the RR just plain becomes too weak. Depending on design this is somewhere between 58 and 64%.

When we get to this point the RF takes control of the kart and the front (still paying attention) begins to overpower the rear. When this happens the kart begins to break free and "feel" loose. It's actually very VERY tight.

Now simplifying for those that were too lazy to follow:
Low cross = free rear = loose rear
high cross = tight front = loose rear
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So, adding cross looses the kart when??

(Ducks and runs) :)
 
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