Lets talk brakes...

spincycle

spincycle

Member
I run a 2 stroke sudam with a Seay big diameter dual vented rotor set up on the LR side of the rear axle, I've noticed at times if I go pretty deep into the corner entry and use some amount of braking, the kart tends to get get a little loose, not bothersome or a problem, I am wondering if you would add a brake caliper/rotor to the left front, will that also affect handling under braking at all, and if so, how? Or would it just simply help slow the kart down more effectively? Thx! 🙂
 
Some guys like the LF brake, others do not. I have one on my personal kart and really like it when running little bullring tracks or indoors. It comes in handy for trailbraking as well.
What works even better is a center mounted brake rotor and caliper like we've done for 30 years on our Vector chassis...slows/stops the kart in a straight line instead of jerking it left and the kart breaking loose.

Vector Chassis.jpg


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🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
33 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
 
Conversely, if I would move the caliper/rotor assembly to the right rear, it would tend to make the kart harder to turn in on entry under braking? Thx!
 
MO Predator Racer said:
Confusion…how does just moving break on axle change entry? Genuinely confused. I see what you mean about left front but not right rear?
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The rotation of the axle is transferred to the chassis, trying to bend it, forward of the brake.
Bending the right side frame rail removes weight from the rr tire.
Bending the lr frame rail removes weight from the lr.
The weight goes somewhere, it's not just hanging out there in space.

Then it comes down to how you believe you are using your tires on a staggered rear axle.

Ps the frame rail doesn't bend permanently, it just flexes.
 
95 shaw said:
The rotation of the axle is transferred to the chassis, trying to bend it, forward of the brake.
Bending the right side frame rail removes weight from the rr tire.
Bending the lr frame rail removes weight from the lr.
The weight goes somewhere, it's not just hanging out there in space.

Then it comes down to how you believe you are using your tires on a staggered rear axle.

Ps the frame rail doesn't bend permanently, it just flexes.
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Makes since. I know people with the brake on the right rear. Is that just because that style of chassis needed it on that side? Like some of the PRC”s? My buddy’s triton Jr has it on right rear.
 
Ok lets shoot this idea in the foot. I have a twin engine kart with a engine on each side twin brakes in the middle stops real good and handles great. Now lets move the brakes one on each side and jam it all together by the axle clutches now what happens? You tell me been there done that I'm done later Cranky Chuck.
 
The tires dont know or care where the weight comes from.
Where the brakes are changes where the weight goes under braking. Most times, not a large amount, but detectable when looking for that last little bit.

Do I say, go out and change where your brakes are, then try to run the same numbers you were using before?

No,
because it will require slight changes to get to the sweet spot.

Knowing you can affect the chassis handling by the way you brake, and why is where the winning info is.

Edit

'The more you dial in for a certain set of conditions, the further you will be off, when those conditions change'

Kermit Buller
 
Both of my karts (a Chase and a Genesis) have right hand brakes and I can't tell the difference from all the left side brake karts I have had. That said, neither kart have been on tracks that need a lot of brakes and perhaps you're in a situation where what most of us know doesn't really apply towards what you need. I cannot tell if it makes a difference or if it was a marketing tool by the chassis companies who made them.
 
You also have rotational forces and weight to consider. When considering theories and applications, don't think of inches, think of feet. Don't think of moving the rotor an inch or two -- consider a 40' flag pole for a rear axle. Now move that brake out to one end and tell us that it won't affect anything.

When the brakes are applied, that rotation is slowed (or stopped.) The kinetic energy of the tire, along with grip on the track surface, try to continue turning the rear axle. One end WILL stop a moment before the other, and it will cause the car to spin in that direction. That, along with stagger and a heavy LR set-up will invariable cause the car to spin left. Ever had a kart sitting sideways in front of you and you had to apply full braking all of the sudden? (ie spin to miss a wreck - which is never a good idea btw) Think about which direction your kart always spins. As soon as your tires have lost grip, the car will turn in the direction of the heaviest corner, many times resulting in "backing it in the wall with the left rear." The brake on the RR helps slightly with stopping, and of course it works differently under trail braking, but maybe it's best benefit is how it helps control a skid. That's where you will notice a real difference in where the brake is located. It's the same idea I used when I first started building karts with a centerline mounted brake in 1990. I can't speak for Mr Wiggins and why they tried the RR brake and later abandoned it -- I can tell you for sure though, that it's a pain, time, and expense, to fit the brakes up on the right rear and run the lines (they were running them through the frame rails!) :)
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
You also have rotational forces and weight to consider. When considering theories and applications, don't think of inches, think of feet. Don't think of moving the rotor an inch or two -- consider a 40' flag pole for a rear axle. Now move that brake out to one end and tell us that it won't affect anything.

When the brakes are applied, that rotation is slowed (or stopped.) The kinetic energy of the tire, along with grip on the track surface, try to continue turning the rear axle. One end WILL stop a moment before the other, and it will cause the car to spin in that direction. That, along with stagger and a heavy LR set-up will invariable cause the car to spin left. Ever had a kart sitting sideways in front of you and you had to apply full braking all of the sudden? (ie spin to miss a wreck - which is never a good idea btw) Think about which direction your kart always spins. As soon as your tires have lost grip, the car will turn in the direction of the heaviest corner, many times resulting in "backing it in the wall with the left rear." The brake on the RR helps slightly with stopping, and of course it works differently under trail braking, but maybe it's best benefit is how it helps control a skid. That's where you will notice a real difference in where the brake is located. It's the same idea I used when I first started building karts with a centerline mounted brake in 1990. I can't speak for Mr Wiggins and why they tried the RR brake and later abandoned it -- I can tell you for sure though, that it's a pain, time, and expense, to fit the brakes up on the right rear and run the lines (they were running them through the frame rails!) :)
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10-4 it's a pain. You can't believe how many headers head right for it. And for indoor racing positioning things to make a jackshaft setup for indoor tracks fit takes some imagination.
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
Some guys like the LF brake, others do not. I have one on my personal kart and really like it when running little bullring tracks or indoors. It comes in handy for trailbraking as well.
What works even better is a center mounted brake rotor and caliper like we've done for 30 years on our Vector chassis...slows/stops the kart in a straight line instead of jerking it left and the kart breaking loose.

View attachment 23758

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🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
33 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
Click to expand...
Are you going to start building more chassis soon?
 
F1F21 said:
Are you going to start building more chassis soon?
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I would really like to, BUT, we are so far behind on other work here currently, that I don't forsee it anytime soon. That, and I lost my two best workers, (sons are both in college now.) I'll be sure to announce something on here and on our Facebook page when we resume building chassis.
 
ok brake gurus shay chavous can go out to a race track qualify in the unlimited 2 cycle class and set pole sometimes by half a second and come off the track and you can put one hand on the bully four disc jackshaft clutch and the other hand on the big ol 7 1/4 vented brake rotor and both are ICE COLD THAT THEARY DOESNT APPLY WHEN YOU HAVE KNOWLEAGE AND A BIG SET OF BALLS JUST LIKE SHAYS MENTOR DEE PASCHAL WICH BY THE WAY USES JUST THE OPPOSITE HE PITCHES THE KART AT THE APEX AND TRAILBRAKES AND NEVER LIFTS THE THROTLE JUST LIKE HE DROVE A SPRINT CAR ONCE AND APPLIED IT WITH THE WEADGE BODY ON AN OFFSET 2CYCLE DIRT KART YOU ALL SAW HIM ANIALATE THE THREE 2 CYCLE CLASSES AT THE DAYTONA MUNICIPLE STADIUM AT THE LAST RACE RUN THERE IN DECEMBER 2005 TWO TOTALY DIFFERENT DRIVING STYLES BUT USING A TON OF BRAKE AND A LOT OF TRAILBRAKING TEARS UP CLUTCHES BRAKES AND PUTS A LOT OF HEAT IN EVERY DRIVE TRAIN COMPONENT AND NOT TO MENTION YOU GOT TO RUN THE ENGINE SO RICH IT WILL ALMOST SHUT DOWN IF YOU ARE OUT OF THE THROTLE TO LONG THAT IS WITH ALL THAT BRAKING TECHNIQUE STYLE OF GETTING IT DONE TWO DIFFERENT DRIVING STYLES SAME RESULT.
 
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