low tension rings
- Thread starter Racer-71
- Start date
Make your own
Gaps are are all over the map.
Seems to be a builders choice.
Have not seen big gains with any paticuler setup but then i may have missed the ideal setup alltogether.
top .003 to .008
2nd .003 - .005 bigger then used top gap
oil tick bigger then 2nd . set the spring tension and run.
Gaps are are all over the map.
Seems to be a builders choice.
Have not seen big gains with any paticuler setup but then i may have missed the ideal setup alltogether.
top .003 to .008
2nd .003 - .005 bigger then used top gap
oil tick bigger then 2nd . set the spring tension and run.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Yep, that advice is good.
I keep my top ring a bit tighter.
ALWAYS have the second ring larger endgap than the top ring (helps to reduce ring flutter.)
Oil ring I really could care less about on an alcohol animal -- as little tension as you feel comfortable with (too little and you will start breaking rings.)
An alcohol animal smoking on the grid is typical with low tension ring package. As long as it doesn't smoke under power on the track, it's all good.
--
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Celebrating 25 years of service to the karting industry
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
I keep my top ring a bit tighter.
ALWAYS have the second ring larger endgap than the top ring (helps to reduce ring flutter.)
Oil ring I really could care less about on an alcohol animal -- as little tension as you feel comfortable with (too little and you will start breaking rings.)
An alcohol animal smoking on the grid is typical with low tension ring package. As long as it doesn't smoke under power on the track, it's all good.
--
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Celebrating 25 years of service to the karting industry
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
Not really sure what your referring to as shrinking, is that a misused term for detention?
You temper the ring to remove to tension. Many ways to do it depending on what what equipment you have and what end result you’re looking for. Back yard is a torch and let it air cool Semi back yard is torch and bury in sand to slow the cooling. More controlled way is a high temp oven and letting it cool real slow in the oven at a controlled rate. Thus actual controlling the amount of tension you removed more precisely.
You temper the ring to remove to tension. Many ways to do it depending on what what equipment you have and what end result you’re looking for. Back yard is a torch and let it air cool Semi back yard is torch and bury in sand to slow the cooling. More controlled way is a high temp oven and letting it cool real slow in the oven at a controlled rate. Thus actual controlling the amount of tension you removed more precisely.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
No, not referring to detonation...I think he's meaning using undersized or de-tensioned rings.
You have to get the ring cherry red to undo the heat treat, etc that's been done to the ring previously. I've got a few old sleeves that I use for "shrinking" rings. This was much more popular on the flatheads until aftermarket rings were allowed. I would guess that few are doing this on the animals now (especially with an expander ring under the oil ring.)
I also quench the rings in a metal coffee can full of oil. Heat the oil up in a toaster oven or similarly and place the cherry red rings (and sleeve) in the oil so that it cools slowly and without air contamination that can cause the rings to become brittle.
Mind you, I am NOT a metallurgy expert...Claire has more background in this area than I do, but this semi-backyard approach has worked very well for me.
--
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Celebrating 25 years of service to the karting industry
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
You have to get the ring cherry red to undo the heat treat, etc that's been done to the ring previously. I've got a few old sleeves that I use for "shrinking" rings. This was much more popular on the flatheads until aftermarket rings were allowed. I would guess that few are doing this on the animals now (especially with an expander ring under the oil ring.)
I also quench the rings in a metal coffee can full of oil. Heat the oil up in a toaster oven or similarly and place the cherry red rings (and sleeve) in the oil so that it cools slowly and without air contamination that can cause the rings to become brittle.
Mind you, I am NOT a metallurgy expert...Claire has more background in this area than I do, but this semi-backyard approach has worked very well for me.
--
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Celebrating 25 years of service to the karting industry
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
This can be done this way but with usually poor results. One needs to support the ring. I have a fixture that I made on my lathe. Then the whole thing needs to go in a super heat oven Bill and I use his heat treating oven used for aircraft parts. the problem with using a torch or ordinary oven is you can't control the heat to cooldown rate. If you use the torch method you will find it pretty hit and miss as I have done hundreds of rings this way and you keep chasing the ring with the torch because it loses it's concentricity. You will find as soon as you put the ring back in the cylinder shine a light up through the base you will have a ring that if lucky ony touches 20% of the cylinder. Thus losing all of the radial tension except for a minor area. At this point the ring is truly not doing anything but going along for the ride. In some cases that may be ok. But if you want that second ring to still do work for you it has to create radial tension 100% around the cylinder to be effective as a compression ring and a scraper yes I said scraper the second rings part is an oil consumption ring as much as it is for compression. I got schooled on rings by Grumpy Jenkins and Joe Mondello a few years before they passed away. those two knew rings and they passed on likely 2% of what they knew and I am grateful for it as well as Joes superb wine!!!
Greg
Greg
LOL Brian, I am far from a expert in this area, know the basics but that’s about it.
Many good points mentioned and ways all depending on what you have to work with. Not everybody has a heat treater they can use so you use what ya have.
When using a HT oven that does not inject a mixture of gasses to clean the environment (only your heat treat places have this) you can make yourself a simple setup to do so at home.
Let me back up a bit, The scaling you get on the rings after heating up and cooling is what’s called decarburization. Not preferred to have on the surface of a quality detention ring that’s still going to work like Greg mentioned. If possible you want the same quality of ring but only at a lower tension
You need to protect the ring form air to prevent this when heating.
Make a coffin to put the rings in.
Then you cover them with Cast Iron machining chip.(CI is very high in carbon) When you pull them out the surface of the rings will look like new.
I was like hooooolly **** look at that the first time I did it.
Many good points mentioned and ways all depending on what you have to work with. Not everybody has a heat treater they can use so you use what ya have.
When using a HT oven that does not inject a mixture of gasses to clean the environment (only your heat treat places have this) you can make yourself a simple setup to do so at home.
Let me back up a bit, The scaling you get on the rings after heating up and cooling is what’s called decarburization. Not preferred to have on the surface of a quality detention ring that’s still going to work like Greg mentioned. If possible you want the same quality of ring but only at a lower tension
You need to protect the ring form air to prevent this when heating.
Make a coffin to put the rings in.
Then you cover them with Cast Iron machining chip.(CI is very high in carbon) When you pull them out the surface of the rings will look like new.
I was like hooooolly **** look at that the first time I did it.
That's what I wa thinking.I turned a ring in the lathe About .010 larger than the actual bore. Left a lip inside the ring to hold it square In the ring. The .then after fitting the ring to the actual bore placed in the ring fixture.and heated with a torch till had it slghtly turn color not cherry red then wrapped it in a welding blacket to cool slow . After cooling I face the rings with 600 grit papper then 1000. Just wondering how everyone else done it. Thanks guys I appreciatte the help I got some good ideas to use next time
Once again thanks any and all advice appreciatted
Once again thanks any and all advice appreciatted
Rikk
New member
Not sure if this will help with reducing ring tension, but it might cause an idea to take shape.
I have had to repair a lot of old tractor and yard equipment pieces parts over the last 5 or so years. A good friend bought a Briggs service center and will fix just about anything. As a result, I get to try and fix or make parts that aren't available any longer. On the occasion that I have to weld up a shaft or temper a piece of material and want to let it cool very slowly I figured out a system that works and most folks have what they need to do it. Of course, things can be scaled up or down to fit the job.
-turkey deep fryer burner
-large cooking vessel or similar container that can handle heat. (I've used 4" black pipe for shafts and an old dutch oven for small parts, heavy walled is better)
-another vessel that holds around 1/2 to 3/4 of the above container
-bag of playground sand
-high temp thermometer
If I know what the Before doing the welding/heating, I fill the first container 1/3-1/2 full with sand and then the remainder goes in the second container and they go on the burner. There are tempering charts as well as heat by color charts all over the net. Use one to determine your required temp. Wait for the sand to come up to temp.
Weld/heat the material as required. Then, being sure to keep plenty of sand around it on all sides, bury it in the hot sand. Again, be sure to keep it well insulated with sand on all sides. Put the lid on and walk away.
I have welded shafts that I couldn't touch with a file after welding, cut like leaded steel after drawing them with this method.
I have had to repair a lot of old tractor and yard equipment pieces parts over the last 5 or so years. A good friend bought a Briggs service center and will fix just about anything. As a result, I get to try and fix or make parts that aren't available any longer. On the occasion that I have to weld up a shaft or temper a piece of material and want to let it cool very slowly I figured out a system that works and most folks have what they need to do it. Of course, things can be scaled up or down to fit the job.
-turkey deep fryer burner
-large cooking vessel or similar container that can handle heat. (I've used 4" black pipe for shafts and an old dutch oven for small parts, heavy walled is better)
-another vessel that holds around 1/2 to 3/4 of the above container
-bag of playground sand
-high temp thermometer
If I know what the Before doing the welding/heating, I fill the first container 1/3-1/2 full with sand and then the remainder goes in the second container and they go on the burner. There are tempering charts as well as heat by color charts all over the net. Use one to determine your required temp. Wait for the sand to come up to temp.
Weld/heat the material as required. Then, being sure to keep plenty of sand around it on all sides, bury it in the hot sand. Again, be sure to keep it well insulated with sand on all sides. Put the lid on and walk away.
I have welded shafts that I couldn't touch with a file after welding, cut like leaded steel after drawing them with this method.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
Has anybody ever done a compression pressure check after treating the rings? I'm pretty sure if there's any loss in compression, it's much worse than any gain you would get from low tension rings. Just a guess, I'm only wondering.
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.(Al Nunley)
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.(Al Nunley)
Rikk
New member
Interesting though. I would bet that if the rings were sealing properly you wouldn't loose much. Like if you lapped them after tempering them. If you think about it, they reach very high temps and cool fairly slow during normal operation, which would kind of be similar to tempering them, which may cause some loss of tension over time. Maybe that is why they make them stiffer so as to take this into account? Just talking out loud here, I have no idea if it's the case or not.
Don't try to de-tension the rings.
Not one person in a thou on this forum has the equipment or the knowledge of how to do this properly.
This stuff is high science, not sand box science.
Every ring maker has a recommended end gap, dependent upon bore size.
It runs about .004 end gap per inch of diameter.
Correct end gaps are much greater than is usually talked about on the forum.
Not one person in a thou on this forum has the equipment or the knowledge of how to do this properly.
This stuff is high science, not sand box science.
Every ring maker has a recommended end gap, dependent upon bore size.
It runs about .004 end gap per inch of diameter.
Correct end gaps are much greater than is usually talked about on the forum.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
I partly agree with you PD, but try running stock Briggs rings per piston size and see what happens (on the dyno and on the track = very disappointing.) As far as ring end gap goes, try .012" ring end gap on the compression ring of a stock flathead and watch what happens. Power is down and by the time the ring is even sealed to the cylinder on the dyno, the ring end gap opens up to .016 or more! I've had my eyes inside of probably every "name" engine builder out there and their flathead top ring end gap is very very small on a fresh engine - no where near the ring manufacturers' recommended .004" per inch of bore. The animal engines don't seem as affected by ring end gaps for whatever reason. The chrome faced ring doesn't open up near as much as the old flatties did though either! Just saying.
For what it's worth, I'm glad we don't mess with detensioning rings much any more. Burris, Power Products, Dyno, and I'm sure others already offer low tension rings.
For what it's worth, I'm glad we don't mess with detensioning rings much any more. Burris, Power Products, Dyno, and I'm sure others already offer low tension rings.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Paul, What do you mean by "valid?" Hopefully I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here.
I've never seen ring end gaps set or a race engine assembled at running temps. Every one I've ever seen assembled is at ambient temp. Some in very high tech hospital-esque shop settings.
Could Wiseco, JE, Mahle, Burris, Briggs, etc be telling engine builders incorrectly how to set their ring end gaps? They should be set at running temps? Not from my sources, but hey - I'm willing to listen to this idea. I've tried the warm honing method, valve seat machining on a hot cylinder head (torque plate installed) and just haven't seen the value of it in our engines. Not to say that it doesn't exist - simply that the return on investment for me personally was not there.
I've never seen ring end gaps set or a race engine assembled at running temps. Every one I've ever seen assembled is at ambient temp. Some in very high tech hospital-esque shop settings.
Could Wiseco, JE, Mahle, Burris, Briggs, etc be telling engine builders incorrectly how to set their ring end gaps? They should be set at running temps? Not from my sources, but hey - I'm willing to listen to this idea. I've tried the warm honing method, valve seat machining on a hot cylinder head (torque plate installed) and just haven't seen the value of it in our engines. Not to say that it doesn't exist - simply that the return on investment for me personally was not there.
FWIW, I was reading an article from Circle Track magazine written by Randy Dorton regarding rings. To test the effects of reducing drag, they removed the second ring on all the pistons to see how much more HP they could make. On a 600 HP motor, they gained around 1%. So how much gain are you getting by de-tensioning the middle ring on a engine with 11-13 HP (depending on your dyno)? IS this a good way to spend your time and resources when building an engine? Do you think you could even effectively measure your gains?
Furthermore, with the way and the degree to which the cylinder moves under race conditions, is the effectiveness of the top ring to maintain seal through the entire stroke compromised with reduced tension?
I believe ring prep is very important for a good performing motor. However, I believe seal is 10x more important than drag. I spend my time accordingly.
Furthermore, with the way and the degree to which the cylinder moves under race conditions, is the effectiveness of the top ring to maintain seal through the entire stroke compromised with reduced tension?
I believe ring prep is very important for a good performing motor. However, I believe seal is 10x more important than drag. I spend my time accordingly.