phenom slow

B

boesse09racing

Member
59 left, 44.9 nose, cross was 57 or 58, kart was very loose so I pushed seat back an inch cured that problem, it is a little loose know, ran 2inches of stagger on a small 1/8 mile bull ring track with short straights and high banked turns, running on 33s duroing at 60, track is red clay and always dusty and taking on rubber, tried the 55s and was slower they duro at high 60s working them down, if I add cross will this make more speed, tried 2 motors and I know that is not my problem rf camber +3/8 rt front -2.5 I am open to suggestions my seat is all the way to the motor and motor is all the way to the right as I can go.
thanks
chad
 
What class?, what engine? IMHO, too much stagger, sounds like you are bound up, we never go more than 1-1/2" rear stagger, in open 2-stroke with 53 h.p. I would move seat to left.
 
I know almost nothing about setup for LTO, which your setup is different from most that I have seen. I have some spreadsheets that give you a hint of proper stagger. Another thing, center to center of the rear tires has an effect on the calculated stagger. I used 33 1/4, center to center, for my calculations.

First off, few call an eighth mile track a bullring. And although it depends on the radius of the turns, my spreadsheet predicts that 1 1/4 rear stagger would be closer than what you run. And that's with no banking. In my spreadsheet, banking always reduces the stagger needed. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just what my spreadsheet says.

I noticed your left front is heavier than your right front. With most setups I see, the LF is almost always lighter than the RF. Another thing, your front percentage is lower than most.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
(Al Nunley)

I can't give you any recommendations on weight percentages, but I can tell you where yours differ from others I've seen here.
 
Too much LS% too little Nose% not enough Cross% and seat mounted wrong
2 in stagger isnt uncommon on bull rings, but if the tires arent biting or the wrong tires you'll have all kinds of problems
 
XXX#40 said:
2 in stagger isnt uncommon on bull rings, but if the tires arent biting or the wrong tires you'll have all kinds of problems
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I suppose it comes down to what you mean when you describe a track as a bullring. In many of the posts that I've read, when the track was referred to as a bullring, it was a 1/10 mile or less track. Not saying you're wrong, just saying there's multiple definitions of the term, "bull ring".

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
(Al Nunley)
 
alvin l nunley said:
I suppose it comes down to what you mean when you describe a track as a bullring. In many of the posts that I've read, when the track was referred to as a bullring, it was a 1/10 mile or less track. Not saying you're wrong, just saying there's multiple definitions of the term, "bull ring".

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
(Al Nunley)
Click to expand...

Since you dont run dirt oval Al, any track under a 1/6 mile is considered a bull ring.
And as banking increases stagger will also, thats where the car guys with sprung suspensions get thrown for a loop
 
XXX#40 said:
Since you dont run dirt oval Al, any track under a 1/6 mile is considered a bull ring.
And as banking increases stagger will also, thats where the car guys with sprung suspensions get thrown for a loop
Click to expand...
very insulting, first to bring up the fact that I don't race oval, (I have no idea why that should have any influence on what I read here) then you give (your) definition of what is considered a bull ring. Implying, I suppose, that my understanding, from posts that I've read, of a bull ring is wrong.

Then you tell me that all the big car drivers are wrong on stagger??? I find that very hard to believe!!

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
(Al Nunley)
 
alvin l nunley said:
very insulting, first to bring up the fact that I don't race oval, (I have no idea why that should have any influence on what I read here) then you give (your) definition of what is considered a bull ring. Implying, I suppose, that my understanding, from posts that I've read, of a bull ring is wrong.

Then you tell me that all the big car drivers are wrong on stagger??? I find that very hard to believe!!

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
(Al Nunley)
Click to expand...

Big car guys that transition to karting decrease stagger as banking increases(As they would on a suspension car) they try that in karting and find the opposite to be true. ie.. car guys thrown for a loop

Just stating fact about you not running dirt oval, is not that the truth? this ways on the advise you give because its not tested advice just your guess from no real life experience

That is not my definition of a bull ring, that is the general definition of any track under 1/6 mile, they are like racing in a "Bull Ring" or Live Stock auction ring, which my guess is you have never ran in an livestock auction ring either.
The vast majority of advertised 1/8 mile tracks are really shorter because they advertised the outside diameter of the track and not the real racing groove, which makes them closer to a 1/10 mile
 
Start here,Nose: 46.0-46.5%
Left: 57.0-58.0%
Cross: 62.0-66.0%

LF: Camber: +3/8
Caster: 7
Toe: 1/16" Out
Run hub in as far as possible without tire/rim rubbing spindle arm

RF: Camber: -2.75
Caster: 10
Toe: 0" Square
Run hub in as far as possible without tire/rim rubbing spindle arm

Stagger: Front: 1-1/2"
Rear: 1-3/8"
depending on corner radius

Rear Track Width: 39-1/4"
RR rim 3/16" from frame rail, adjust LR accordingly
 
XXX#40 said:
Just stating fact about you not running dirt oval, is not that the truth? this ways on the advise you give because its not tested advice just your guess from no real life experience
Click to expand...
what you fail to understand is, I do not give out advice on percentages. I only point out where a persons set up might be different from the norm. I have never told anyone what percentages to run. I don't know. But I do know what I've read and how a person's percentages might differ from the norm. I need no testing, or driving experience, to point these things out. You apparently don't know the difference between, "what to do" and "comment". When it comes to percentages, I tell nobody what to do, I only comment on what they've done and how what they've done differs from advice I have seen here. When 90% of the LTO setups I've seen show a RF heavier than a LF, it takes no genius to "comment" on that fact.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
(Al Nunley)
 
alvin l nunley said:
what you fail to understand is, I do not give out advice on percentages. I only point out where a persons set up might be different from the norm. I have never told anyone what percentages to run. I don't know. But I do know what I've read and how a person's percentages might differ from the norm. I need no testing, or driving experience, to point these things out.
Click to expand...
Al there are generations of LTO karts so to speak. A chassis built between 1995-2002 isn't going to take the same percentages as a kart built between 2003-2007 and a kart built between 2008-present. through the years the designs have evolved around the tires. So where an earlier chassis made mechanical grip through the chassis itself, as the years have progressed the mechanical grip has been transferred to the tires so now the chassis is dependent on the tires and the percentages will not change much from track to track. That's something I believe you have so far failed to grasp. So when you offer advice for someone with say an older chassis, your advice is often what you've seen people talk about with new generation karts, and would be bad advice for someone on an older model kart.
 
boesse09racing said:
59 left, 44.9 nose, cross was 57 or 58, kart was very loose so I pushed seat back an inch cured that problem, it is a little loose know, ran 2inches of stagger on a small 1/8 mile bull ring track with short straights and high banked turns, running on 33s duroing at 60, track is red clay and always dusty and taking on rubber, tried the 55s and was slower they duro at high 60s working them down, if I add cross will this make more speed, tried 2 motors and I know that is not my problem rf camber +3/8 rt front -2.5 I am open to suggestions my seat is all the way to the motor and motor is all the way to the right as I can go.
thanks
chad
Click to expand...

Since the first word of your title is Phenom, the answer is easy contact LTG Todd will know best.
Good Luck !!
 
Eventually you guys will stop trying to reason with Al. Just correct his misinformation and move on. To just take the average of all different setups and use it as a reference has no bearing. Its like guessing on a multiple choice problem. Dramatically different track surfaces, tires and chassis designs change % considerably.

Man, there I go wasting my time again trying to reason.
 
boesse09racing said:
59 left, 44.9 nose, cross was 57 or 58, kart was very loose so I pushed seat back an inch cured that problem, it is a little loose know, ran 2inches of stagger on a small 1/8 mile bull ring track with short straights and high banked turns, running on 33s duroing at 60, track is red clay and always dusty and taking on rubber, tried the 55s and was slower they duro at high 60s working them down, if I add cross will this make more speed, tried 2 motors and I know that is not my problem rf camber +3/8 rt front -2.5 I am open to suggestions my seat is all the way to the motor and motor is all the way to the right as I can go.
thanks
chad
Click to expand...

To much left, not enough nose as posted above, bottom line your slow because your not getting in the track enough to generate enough forward drive, If the other gentleman got those numbers from Todd go with it and tweek from there, but get it into the track some.

Good Luck !!
 
62-64 cross
46.5 nose
57 left
1 3/8 front stagger
1 1/8th rear stagger
8-12 caster
1/8 mile is considered a bull ring
boesse09racing said:
59 left, 44.9 nose, cross was 57 or 58, kart was very loose so I pushed seat back an inch cured that problem, it is a little loose know, ran 2inches of stagger on a small 1/8 mile bull ring track with short straights and high banked turns, running on 33s duroing at 60, track is red clay and always dusty and taking on rubber, tried the 55s and was slower they duro at high 60s working them down, if I add cross will this make more speed, tried 2 motors and I know that is not my problem rf camber +3/8 rt front -2.5 I am open to suggestions my seat is all the way to the motor and motor is all the way to the right as I can go.
thanks
chad
Click to expand...
 
moving the motor all the way to the right isnt your loose issue,the back bone of your seat needs to be in the center of your wolf plate
boesse09racing said:
59 left, 44.9 nose, cross was 57 or 58, kart was very loose so I pushed seat back an inch cured that problem, it is a little loose know, ran 2inches of stagger on a small 1/8 mile bull ring track with short straights and high banked turns, running on 33s duroing at 60, track is red clay and always dusty and taking on rubber, tried the 55s and was slower they duro at high 60s working them down, if I add cross will this make more speed, tried 2 motors and I know that is not my problem rf camber +3/8 rt front -2.5 I am open to suggestions my seat is all the way to the motor and motor is all the way to the right as I can go.
thanks
chad
Click to expand...
 
well went out on a hard set of 33s and won the heat race on this setup, all I did was lower my stagger to 1 1/2 inches, went out in the main and dropped back after about 18 or 20 laps my tires went away, people on 55s started going by. the track was all rubbered up and very slippery, I have a set of 55s duro around 60 that I will try again they just seem slower. I just bought a set of 44s with one race on them not sure how they will do duroing between 60 and 65, internal rolling now, I use a medium prep trackside mixed 50/50 acrosol from a local kart shop. I am very green when it comes to tires
any advice would be great
thanks
 
your advise is in post #16 along with the other adivse
boesse09racing said:
well went out on a hard set of 33s and won the heat race on this setup, all I did was lower my stagger to 1 1/2 inches, went out in the main and dropped back after about 18 or 20 laps my tires went away, people on 55s started going by. the track was all rubbered up and very slippery, I have a set of 55s duro around 60 that I will try again they just seem slower. I just bought a set of 44s with one race on them not sure how they will do duroing between 60 and 65, internal rolling now, I use a medium prep trackside mixed 50/50 acrosol from a local kart shop. I am very green when it comes to tires
any advice would be great
thanks
Click to expand...
 
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