Predator valve spring explanation

DynoDon

Moderator
First off, how I got involved in this position is beyond me because I wanted nothing to do with this engine from day one. Mainly because I knew with a gut feeling that it was going to be problematic.
A friend talked me in to helping keep the "out of the box" concept under control. With that commitment I purchased two engines out of my own pocket. Reason being, I knew from the beginning days of the clone that there were differences in the engines from one to another.
Sure enough, both engines were different. BUT, I was able to document every important area of the engines that I felt would be of importance should I confiscate an engine from a Karter. To this date I have confiscated 3 engines and prepared 7 engines for friends.
The 3 I confiscated were completely disassembled and documented. I am not saying I am the most knowledgeable individual over this engine but I am aware of what's going on internally.
NOW for the disturbing news to the new Karter ( first timer ) and not so disturbing news to the long term Karter.
Springs have been being changed on the predator from day one!!!! WHY? Because there are other people than me who have the skill and the tools to know just what is inside this engine.
Remember back in the beginning of the topic I said I had measured every inch of the engine on all that I disassembled. Well, I also took the springs out to see just what was up with consistency from one to another. If some of you are skilled enough to do a search on here, you will find a post I made several months ago about the consistency of the predator spring in relationship to the clone.

After verifying my findings with my builder buddy's down south, I decided to be quiet about it so the knowledge didn't get out. I didn't want everyone running out and purchasing clone springs and putting them in the engine.
TWO reasons. 1.) Cost to the Karter who can't do it themselves and need a builder to do it. 2.). THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO CHANGE THE SPRING.
Why do I make such a bold statement in #2?
It is easy to understand. If the predator spring is as good as the clone spring with the low rpm the engine is running there is no reason to change them. Builders would like to convince you that it does because it is a good payday for such a simple job.
Clones are turning in the area of 7000 rpm and that rpm will weaken a spring because of the performance cam and excessive heat.
The predator doesn't have either of those factor's so there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO REPLACE THE SPRING!!
Now, why did I allow it? ( Replacing the spring) Because I had people calling, texting, and physically approaching me asking if they could do it because they knew others were doing it. I also knew ( no actual knowledge just a gut feeling from past experience ) others were doing it but I just didn't want to allow it until I absolutely had to.
I knew it was going to be problematic for me when I did. Some one said to me, " don't you think you are a hypocrite knowing others do it and you don't allow the rest of us to do it".
That struck home!!! He was right. You can place a set of unmarked clone springs side by side to the predator spring and you can't tell the difference. With that being said, I discussed the problem with others and it was decided we need a parameter to gauge the spring by. The best parameter is the clone spring rule. I am sorry.
 

DynoDon

Moderator
I will not lock this unless I need to so try to be kind
 

racing promotor

Moderator
All I'll say is if you know the ones changing springs your convinced there is NO advantage why worry about it as to extent of a rule change, common sense and being around long enough to have seen it all tells me there changing other things as well, So if you change the rules to cover everything just so you can prove they have made a change GUESS what you now have ? I'll tell you a $1200 $$$$$ blue printed motor.

If you suspect changes just claim the motors use the rule as intended, as you pass motors back mark the springs you'll soon know if changes are being made in normal tech, sell the claimed motors in area's that allow changes. problem solved NO door open for builders to start seeing $$$$ signs

In case it's not realized the 2 predator classes at 2 of the three track are now 20% to 25% of there total entries, If it ain't broke don't try to fix it !!
At some point and I know we ALL agree to this, the same thing happened with the clone that we all now complain cost to much, a snowball starts small but gotta start somewhere.

Hope that was kind enough ,as I'm only posting as someone who cares about the local tracks and the sport in general !!
 
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Don you are not a hypocrite if you only have a gut feeling and that's it ....the one who said that to you was wrong if you didn't know for 100% that others were changing springs ...and how did the ones coming to you know that there competitors were changing springs was it just a gut feeling for them too ...I have a gut feeling that there is a certain engine builder stretches the limit on his motors and in my opinion builds an illegal motor but I also know I need a good tech man to find it so till then I will keep working hard on chassis and TIRES ...I know that changing valve springs will not make a noticeable change on track if the tires and chassis is off ...but we definitely need to keep engine builders fingers out of predator engines ...these drivers are having fun and the sport needs them just like the sport needs good tech guys who will go the extra mile like you have in the past
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
Trying to stay the course is best .
Once the Barn door is open its too. Late .
 

Marvpower

Member
Just a simple question. Don't kill me.

If you put a measure on the springs a tech person has something to go with.

If you don't put a measure on the springs how does a tech person declare legal or not ?

It's already known that there is springs out that look identical to the stock springs and are higher poundage.

I will agree the higher poundage springs are not an advantage.

Personally i would not go with a heavier spring.

Go ahead and kill me for this comment.
 

racing promotor

Moderator
Just a simple question. Don't kill me.

If you put a measure on the springs a tech person has something to go with.

If you don't put a measure on the springs how does a tech person declare legal or not ?

It's already known that there is springs out that look identical to the stock springs and are higher poundage.

I will agree the higher poundage springs are not an advantage.

Personally i would not go with a heavier spring.

Go ahead and kill me for this comment.
Apply that to every part and you end up with a $1200 blue printed motor is what I'll stick with.
 

racing promotor

Moderator
I guess I'm looking at it like this, I'm a motor moron and If a builder put higher poundage spring in my predator I'd hit him with a stick, we all know If there is a performance change it's a disadvantage, So I'm comparing it to someone running a purple plate in a blue plate class and were worried about teching the plate.
 

Marvpower

Member
Apply that to every part and you end up with a $1200 blue printed motor is what I'll stick with.
I understand what you are saying

But look at tech side. Beside of taking every motor every week.
How can i say that the springs are legal or not.

And this is not the only thing that is going on

I have not built a preditor i never will because this will be the new clone
 

racing promotor

Moderator
I understand what you are saying

But look at tech side. Beside of taking every motor every week.
How can i say that the springs are legal or not.

And this is not the only thing that is going on

I have not built a preditor i never will because this will be the new clone
If it's not an advantage who cares, if we put specific specs on every part it will only accelerate become a clone.
 

DynoDon

Moderator
I will have that answer by the end of the week and will share at Selinsgrove and Penns Creek on race night
 
Dyno Don. Remember the little johnny story? I remember when the clones first start to become popular. They were $69.00 With discount from Harbor freight, were supposed to be ran out of the box. What Happen?

By the time you get this spring issue settled, the predator will come with different spring anyway! and maybe a new carb. Over 30 million small engines were sold by the top 5 engine MFGs last year. Does anyone expect them to listen to US karters.
If we had just one supply for the engines, That could make sure all the engines were shipped with the exact same parts from now on. Then your job would be possible. AND a lot easier.

Such a supplier does exist. But I am not going there.
 

OVALTECH1

Premium User
Briggs ........?????..........?????
 

DynoDon

Moderator
I do remember the little Johny story. I wrote it. I am having mixed feelings on this issue to where I am not sleeping good. So don't anyone think I am not bothered by it. If I should retract the decision to allow the clone spring so I have a method to test, what method should I use to determine a legal spring? I wish everyone had the knowledge of just how much blueprinting is already taking place in this engine. One guy down south charges $400 and another $500. Both are busy!! Twist the lines on the cam to get a better love desperation to help the bottom end, move the crank gear to achieve correct centerline for that love separation, valves circumference lessened, lightweight internals. The list goes on and on. Don't think it doesn't. I already know one builder up here who is playing. So I ask this. If I get another engine that was taken, what am I to look for?
 

racing promotor

Moderator
I'm asking here, could you not come up with a method on testing springs based on the motors you've torn down already, that you know were not messed with ? And everyone's springs need marked. Sounds to me like If it came from a builder we know it's Illegal, From what I'm hearing I'd be considering making a trip to Cliff's and buying a bunch of seals with serial numbers on them.
Also keep in mind down south already starting having BIG payouts So ya they've already turned it into another clone, We haven't YET !!
 
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racing promotor

Moderator
I do remember the little Johny story. I wrote it. I am having mixed feelings on this issue to where I am not sleeping good. So don't anyone think I am not bothered by it. If I should retract the decision to allow the clone spring so I have a method to test, what method should I use to determine a legal spring? I wish everyone had the knowledge of just how much blueprinting is already taking place in this engine. One guy down south charges $400 and another $500. Both are busy!! Twist the lines on the cam to get a better love desperation to help the bottom end, move the crank gear to achieve correct centerline for that love separation, valves circumference lessened, lightweight internals. The list goes on and on. Don't think it doesn't. I already know one builder up here who is playing. So I ask this. If I get another engine that was taken, what am I to look for?
The MARKET here has not gotten out of hand YET with any builder being able to stay busy with just these motor's, let's strive to keep it that way.
 
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