Track Tac

ratchet hub or free roller hub

A S/A class may over power the one wheel rr pull. Don't know. Depends on loading. I will say this. I don't want to be responsible for someone getting hurt, so remember, as mentioned above, you will only have one wheel brake also. Take care...
 
"A S/A class may over power the one wheel RR pull." Good thought M.D.racing. Todd asked about both a free rolling bearing and a ratchet hub. I think what a free rolling will do is obvious, it will allow one rear tire to roll in either direction the same as either front tire. I think a ratcheting hub will contain a Torrington clutch, which will allow for free rolling in only one direction.

I see multiple ways to use each type, depending on how you wanted your rear tires to work with the track. I would like to know how each possible configuration of free rolling and ratcheting can be used and what it's expected to do for you. I've never read on here about the different possibilities.

I'll give it a try with the hope what I get wrong or miss will be corrected by others. Maybe then we all will have a list of what each can do and what you would expect each to do for you on the track.

I'll start with what Al mentioned and I never heard of using them like that before. I think Al explained he put one way ratcheting bearings or torrington clutches in both rear wheels. And to gain the braking which would be lost, assuming the ratcheting would only allow for acceleration, he installed brakes in each rear wheel. Al if your reading this you wrote you stopped developing the system because of several problems. I'm just brain storming with this, but could one of the problems be fixed, if while on the track you could either manually or automatically bias rear braking, towards either the RR or LR?

The next possibility I see would be to have the RR locked to the axle and free roll the LR. With that setup it would be as I think M.D.racing suggested, you would have both acceleration and braking all at the RR. With this setup you would lay as much weight as you can or is needed on the RR.

Then the next obvious is what if the free rolling bearing was at the RR, with the LR providing all acceleration and braking. I can see that working too. With this setup you would lay as much weight as you can or is needed on the LR.

Between the two above, I'm not sure which would be faster. I'm thinking free rolling the RR might be faster, because weight on the RR would only be needed to hold the back in and not needed for acceleration. Assuming you don't run out of grip at the LR, weight in the turn would automatically be moved to the now easier to turn by the fronts, RR.

... I'm out of coffee and words for now. ... anyone else want to give a go to a different configuration?
 
How about a one way ratchet hub turned backwards on the left rear. Rear tires same size/roll out. The right rear and axle could freely turn faster than the left rear. Under braking tho the left rear could not turn faster than the right rear and axle, so two wheel braking would again be available.....Ain't bench racing fun... imagine what we could do if we could only do what we imagine....
 
Im more curious about the product than I am interested in buying one- to be honest. Just stumbled across the hubs online&wondered why I'd never heard of such a thing-or of folks using them seeing how everyone is constantly messing with stagger.
 
There used in 1/4 midget racing. Ratchet hub has a 1 way bearing. Can be used on either rear wheel but the 1 way bearing has to be turned around depending on which wheel you use it on. Free wheeling hub has a regular bearing and is usually used on the inside left rear. When using, it's just like the old original dead axle karts of the early 50-60 karts. Right wheel drive on ovals. When sprint tracks appeared the live axle became the norm for right and left hand turns other wise the inside wheel would loose traction in a turn unless you had a twin engine kart. Early kart engines had both right and left style engines to mount on either side of the kart.
 
The one direction bearing is not a ratchet.
It is illegal in all forms of kart racing.
I attended a kart race when one of the competitors was using the one way bearing.
It was for use on left hand turns.
When the driver had to steer back to the right, and hit the brake at the same time, the kart flipped and broke his shoulder.
He was off work for 6 weeks.

There ARE reasons for the rules reading as they do.
 
PD Power said:
The one direction bearing is not a ratchet.
It is illegal in all forms of kart racing.
I attended a kart race when one of the competitors was using the one way bearing.
It was for use on left hand turns.
When the driver had to steer back to the right, and hit the brake at the same time, the kart flipped and broke his shoulder.
He was off work for 6 weeks.

There ARE reasons for the rules reading as they do.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how this guy was using the one way hub and how it could possibly be to blame for causing the kart to flip when he turned right(counteracting a slide?)and hit the brake.
Can you elaborate? I'm out of the mainstream and just playing. I don't have any current rule sets in my possession. What do the rules state specifically on these devices? Just curious.........
 
The rule is specific in all kart racing rules. Both rear wheels must be permanently bolted to the rear axle. This is a defined requirement in karting.

Having the kart freewheel around the corners, actually deprives the driver and kart of the value of having the inner rear wheel,
giving up some weight in to the turn, and apex, and regaining traction from the apex out.
Always bear in mind......rule 1.........in motor racing to get something, you have to give up something.
IF you give up inner wheel drive with the one way bearing, then you attempt to regain the braking by placing a brake
on the slipping wheel (which is doable) then you have given back the slip, in favor of the brake, and you are right back
where you started.
Better to get proper setup, and have all the wheels under you, at all times.
 
PD Power said:
The rule is specific in all kart racing rules. Both rear wheels must be permanently bolted to the rear axle. This is a defined requirement in karting.

Having the kart freewheel around the corners, actually deprives the driver and kart of the value of having the inner rear wheel,
giving up some weight in to the turn, and apex, and regaining traction from the apex out.
Always bear in mind......rule 1.........in motor racing to get something, you have to give up something.
IF you give up inner wheel drive with the one way bearing, then you attempt to regain the braking by placing a brake
on the slipping wheel (which is doable) then you have given back the slip, in favor of the brake, and you are right back
where you started.
Better to get proper setup, and have all the wheels under you, at all times.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to stir things up but I hope the rules are more specific about the use of these, because a wheel bolted to one of these hubs is just as "permanently bolt to the rear axle" as a front wheel is to a front bearing hub.
As far as the braking issue: read my post #23 and see what I'm trying to say.
I think this can work in classes where there is not alot of hp. We are trying to get enough bite out of th RF to transfer weight to the RR on these modern karts. Why can't you just have some of the weight there to begin with and then accept the transfer. Without the "live" axle trying to push you straight you would need little to no caster for weight jacking and transfer to the right rear so the left rear could stay in contact with the track for traction in resisting sliding sideways. It would only have one job instead of two. There are those that will say there is not enough available traction for the RR to handle the job but you would be surprised how much is there with enough dowloading/weight. I have seen my old altered A-Bone bicycle on dirt with a heavier driver. 52% right weight with me in it. There is more traction available in the right rear than most realize because we are all so busy centering our seats on the brake rotor and then trying to figure out how to get that weight center to move. Take Care everybody......
 
el tee eff said:
Im more curious about the product than I am interested in buying one- to be honest. Just stumbled across the hubs online&wondered why I'd never heard of such a thing-or of folks using them seeing how everyone is constantly messing with stagger.
Click to expand...

The reason it's not used all over LTO racing is it does not create the possibility for a kart with a solid axle and special hub, to be faster then a common kart, with a properly used solid axle and stagger.

It will make it much easier for racers to get sort of fast or as fast as the ultimate sprint kart, if it is used on oval. But it still does not have the capability to be as fast as a LTO(left turn only offset kart) using their staggered tires and solid axle, in the ideal way.

You'll only beat others with it, if your racing against others who don't know what there doing and are using their karts more towards how a sprint kart works. You'll get closer, but if all are on their game you will not be as fast.
 
No, MD.......the rear wheel is NOT bolted to the rear axel. It is bolted to a bearing, which is bolted to the rear axle.
Nor is the front wheel bolted directly to the spindle.
There is no value in trying to argue the semantics. The rear wheels must be solid to the rear axle.
 
PD Power said:
No, MD.......the rear wheel is NOT bolted to the rear axel. It is bolted to a bearing, which is bolted to the rear axle.
Nor is the front wheel bolted directly to the spindle.
There is no value in trying to argue the semantics. The rear wheels must be solid to the rear axle.
Click to expand...

Ok Ok. Easy. Still fun to imagine. On a side note. There was a guy asking about Blockzilla specs. On here earlier. I found an old thread where you were giving a wealth of info about ID on 1/2/3 blocks. I gave a link to the thread and tol him that it sounds like you could help him. Take Care.
I'll take my yard kart and go home now. Lol :cool:
 
So anyway. I've been riding this kart with a large right rear mounted inside the frame rails. The left rear is only 8" in dia. and never touches. I run extreme reverse caster so the kart leans to the inside for driver comfort in a turn. The right rear is really soft and has a radial cut on it.......kidding and wondering. Trek kart....
 
Anyone have any real experience using on a typical dirt track? Driven one with a 1/4 midget, the ratchet one when it engaged would make the car shake, not sure how that would be with a ridged chassis. We had more speed with a free rolling one, and ratchet compared to a locked one, but it freeded up the car, totally different machine though.
 
PD Power said:
The one direction bearing is not a ratchet.
It is illegal in all forms of kart racing.
I attended a kart race when one of the competitors was using the one way bearing.
It was for use on left hand turns.
When the driver had to steer back to the right, and hit the brake at the same time, the kart flipped and broke his shoulder.
He was off work for 6 weeks.

There ARE reasons for the rules reading as they do.
Click to expand...

Freewheeling hub isn't keyed to the axle. The Ratchet Hub with the one way bearing is keyed to the axle. Depending on which wheel you have it on it locks or unlocks just like a limited slip rear end. As far as the kart turning over which rear wheel was it on? You only have breaking by the rear wheel which is keyed to the axle in both directions. Early karts only drove one wheel (dead axle) unless you had dual engines. Some of the early karts only had 1 wheel brakes unless they had one on each wheel. Live axel (locked together) like we use today came in later. I guess 1/4 midgets are dangerous since they use both of the hubs mentioned. Doubt they use both at the same time but that is just a guess, maybe they do!
 
M.D.racing said:
I'm not trying to stir things up but I hope the rules are more specific about the use of these, because a wheel bolted to one of these hubs is just as "permanently bolt to the rear axle" as a front wheel is to a front bearing hub.
As far as the braking issue: read my post #23 and see what I'm trying to say.
I think this can work in classes where there is not alot of hp. We are trying to get enough bite out of th RF to transfer weight to the RR on these modern karts. Why can't you just have some of the weight there to begin with and then accept the transfer. Without the "live" axle trying to push you straight you would need little to no caster for weight jacking and transfer to the right rear so the left rear could stay in contact with the track for traction in resisting sliding sideways. It would only have one job instead of two. There are those that will say there is not enough available traction for the RR to handle the job but you would be surprised how much is there with enough dowloading/weight. I have seen my old altered A-Bone bicycle on dirt with a heavier driver. 52% right weight with me in it. There is more traction available in the right rear than most realize because we are all so busy centering our seats on the brake rotor and then trying to figure out how to get that weight center to move. Take Care everybody......
Click to expand...

Kart Requirements

Wheels, Hubs and Axles

SPECIFICALLY addressing axles...........

"Rear axles shall be one-piece design, driving both wheels."
"ANY device that allows the rear wheels to rotate at different speeds is not allowed."
 
rebsfan4 said:
Kart Requirements

Wheels, Hubs and Axles

SPECIFICALLY addressing axles...........

"Rear axles shall be one-piece design, driving both wheels."
"ANY device that allows the rear wheels to rotate at different speeds is not allowed."
Click to expand...

Party pooper!....LOL Thanks for the specifics.....
Take Care everybody...:cool:
 
oldasdirt said:
Doubt they use both at the same time but that is just a guess, maybe they do!
Click to expand...

Was an option. for us when I raced them it would make the kart handle better in the turns but kill speed on the straight away. A 1/4 is a totally different beast then a kart
 
S&MRacing said:
Was an option. for us when I raced them it would make the kart handle better in the turns but kill speed on the straight away. A 1/4 is a totally different beast then a kart
Click to expand...

Why would they hurt the straight away speed. Free roller would allow you to do away with stagger and a ratchet hub drives?
 
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