Rear rake back of kart

FULLOFQUESTIONS

New member
What would happen if I.....

Had my rear axle in neutral setting, rear of kart level with 63% cross. Then jacked the LR of axle up farther (away) from frame. Reset cross back to 63%
 
In my experience, with an icon, it would take the severe push out of it. Try it, you might like it :)
 
The washer's on the front end will be at extremes, and you have created an uphill battle for weight to transfer, effectively slowing/reducing weight transfer off the LR.
And unless you have a floating brake hub and sprocket carrier yhe brake rotor could rub, and you could have chain problems
 
Wouldn't it be neat if the engine could be tilted , along with the caliper, to match the frame tilt?

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
 
Wouldn't it be neat if the engine could be tilted , along with the caliper, to match the frame tilt?

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
Nope the adjustable mounts would cost more than floating hubs
 
Nope the adjustable mounts would cost more than floating hubs
Sometimes it costs more to go first class!! And what does cost have to do with neat?

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
 
The engine is on an engine mount, which is mounted directly to the frame rails. Therefore, the engine DOES follow any tilt/rake of the frame. The brake caliper can be shimmed to adjust for any rake or lead change.
 
The engine is on an engine mount, which is mounted directly to the frame rails. Therefore, the engine DOES follow any tilt/rake of the frame. The brake caliper can be shimmed to adjust for any rake or lead change.
The brake mount is also attached to the chassis
 
The engine is on an engine mount, which is mounted directly to the frame rails. Therefore, the engine DOES follow any tilt/rake of the frame. The brake caliper can be shimmed to adjust for any rake or lead change.

not directed specifically as an answer to regsfan4, just happened to pick your reply to throw in my 2 cents. ... :)

Or have the engine and the brake caliper mounted on it's own two chassis rails, bearing connected to the axle. Then extending forward or rearward, depending on how you want to dispense rotational effort from the engine, to engage the frame. Normally rotational effort is directed toward the heaviest point, the driver, creating a lifting effort at the heaviest point. But there could be times when you may want to direct the effort downward behind the axle, or split the effort up maybe first downward behind the axle, then on towards normal upward effort. What you do would depend on available hp and available grip.
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yep directed directly to throwing in thoughts on FULLOFQUESTIONS, question. ... :)

FULLOFQUESTIONS: I like to write and think about "what if" stuff too and I'll take a chance throwing in my bs and thoughts on it. It's fun for me but just that, only thoughts right now on it right or wrong.

If I read your question correctly cranking the axle up above the chassis rail, would mean you lowered the LR(left rear) corner, way the heck down as far as you could drop it down. The end result would be the left end of the axle was up high, with the chassis way down below it.

And then you were able to get your numbers back to where you had the same 63% cross you had to start with.

Figuring that's it and even if it's not, that's how I'm thinking of it while I write.

The first thing which comes to my mind is when you raised the axle up or in my words dropped the LR corner of the chassis down, you jumped weight down in a sort of hole, at the LR corner. When your on the track your chassis has to be able to operate. Your chassis operating is more then just how the steering parts move when you turn the wheel. The operation of your chassis includes all the weight which when your accelerating tries to go to the rear, when your braking tries to go forward and when your turning tries to go to the outside right. The first thing you did was to drop a bunch of weight down farther into a hole at the LR corner. I hope the next question you now have is "what hole?".

Here's the hole you and everyone else has to deal with setting up your kart or your car, if you race or ever race cars. There's a mythical hunk of weight on your kart you can't see, but you can calculate where it is, even if you can't see it. It's called your COG(center of gravity). The COG is connected to your chassis by everything included in your chassis, even connected through you the driver. How your chassis operates is determined by how the COG is connected to the chassis and where it is located. For now lets just say it's at the center of the drivers chest. You included 63% cross in your question, well, there are actually two crosses. The one your used in your question is the one between the RF(right front) and the LR(left rear). The other cross is the one between the LF(left front) and the RR(right rear). When you dropped the chassis down at the LR corner, it dropped down rotating down on the cross or a line between the LF and the RR. Since the RF is also connected to the chassis, when the LR went down pivoting down on the line between the LF and the RR, the RF went up. The RF didn't go up exactly the same as the LR went down, because how far apart the LF and RR are changes it. Think about both crosses, the one between the LF and RR, and the one between the RF ad the LR. Think about where they cross each other. If you do you will see they don't cross each other exactly in the middle of each line. That's why what you do at the LR is not exactly reflected by something at the RF. Some of what you do at the LR shifts a little towards either the LF or the RR, depending on where the two crosses intersect. The same thing happens out on the track when you make a change. What you do at one corner does not usually work the same at the opposite end.

Anyway when you dropped down the LR corner, you dumped some weight of the kart down into the hole at the LR corner. And you pivoted down at the LR corner, lifting up at the RF corner. Since the COG is connected to the kart, the COG also moved towards the LR corner because it also got pivoted down towards the hole in the LR corner.

Ok it's time to talk about where the line between the LF and the RR is located. Your LF spindle which your tire is mounted to is attached or welded to the king pin. One end of the line is where your spindle is mounted to the kingpin. the other end of the line is where the right end of your axle is connected to your rim, you can think of the right end of the line between your LF and your RR, ending at your RR hub. So the pivot line for your LF/RR cross goes from where your spindle is mounted to your kingpin, to your RR hub. If you think about the line it's up off the ground. Back the the hole at the LR. For the COG of your chassis to work and get weight out of the hole at the LR, it has to work around that other cross line. If you drop weight down into the hole below the line, it really hard to make it move, because you first have to lift it up as high as the line is, before it gets easy to move over to the right. If you ever hear about someone not being able to get off of the RR, that's the why of it. They just can get enough weight up out of the hole at the LR.

OK after all that to think about, your question also said you reset your cross back to 63% after dropping the LR corner way down and after dumping a lot of weight into the hole. I can't go on with my thoughts unless I know how you reset your cross or were thinking of resetting your cross. If you moved weight out of the hole by moving the seat up and towards the RF, that's one thing. But maybe you reset your cross by pushing the RF tire down, that another thing. If you pushed the RF tire down to reset cross, your pushing the weight in the hole down harder too. One way of changing cross will make your kart act differently out on the track then the other, because of how it also effects the weight you dumped into the hole when you made your adjustment.

If you read this far, thanks for reading but it is all just IMHO and ain't necessairly right anyway. ... :)
 
edit to the above post: I actually think of the line of cross between the LF and RR, as going from the LF spindle contact point to the RR tire patch. I used the RR hub or RR axle attachment point in my writing, because I thought it would make it easier to visualize weight having to be moved, in relation to the line. Hope this doesn't add too much confusion, but it's what I did while writing. I also didn't want to hyjack the thread into arguing about roll center locations. sorry.

paul


ps... I just read through what I posted and I assumed raising up the axle or lowering the LR corner dumped more weight onto the LR corner. I don't scale and I'm not sure if it would or would not. I just figured if weight is already biased towards the LR and you drop the LR down, then the already biased weight would be increased at the LR and reduced at the RF. But not being a person with much hands on experience scaling, I don't know if that is true for sure or not. If it isn't the way it would work if you dropped the LR corner down, then please someone correct me. But even if it isn't the usual way it would work, if it did I think or hope the logic is correct.

again, it's all just IMHO and ain't necessairly right anyway. ... :)


but sure if fun to think about and I think that's what the original poster is doing to, thinking bout stuff. ... :)
 
Hi FULLOFQUESTIONS, I just read the other questions you posted. How about telling us what you think would happen on one of them? I'm on here to learn too. I write a lot both because I enjoy it and also hoping someone will tell me I'm wrong, explain why and I'll learn something.

help?

paul


ps... I've found over the years the more you write the easier it gets and the more fun you have doing it. It will take effort to write better, but weather you do or do not get better at it, it sure gets to be a whole lot more fun doing more of it. ... :)
 
Paul read what I wrote, you need to get on some scales on an oval kart and see what happens when you go to extremes as the OP posted.
While he did add very little weight to the LR with the initial raising the axle, he also re-balanced the weight with changing washers on the front end, while cross may now be the same as before, his LS% will be a little higher, but like you said the weight is in a hole, and its an up hill battle to transfer weight off the LR, that will be slowed, or never be accomplished , he moved his VCG back, to the left and lowered it
 
The original poster did not say how he set or intended to set cross back to 63%. He asked what would happen and I figure the whole point of any change in setup is to make things change out on the track. It nets out to nobody can tell him what would happen unless he tells us how the cross is reset back to 63%, the amount of hp he has available and describes the track to include available grip. With that info I think a guess can be made about how on track performance will change. Without it, it's all a really open ended guess.

I answered thinking he was new and was interested in the answer. After finding out he made a series of other posts asking complex questions, I suspect he's just pulling everyone's chain looking to create debate and feels he already knows the answers. Because of that I asked for his input on the question, to see where he stands on it. I enjoy writing and I especially enjoy it when I think I'm helping someone to learn and understand how things work. I also like getting into the fine details and how things are inter related, not arguing but exchanging thoughts and ideas of stuff. But it looses it's labor of love, when I feel I'm just being used for someone else's entertainment, fun and games.

paul

And yes I sure would like to spend time on the scales. Your exactly right.

ps... I do also at times to even frequently throw questions out there. If it's on off topic the questions are likely to be for fun and games, as much as not.

But for the most part, I ask setup and how things work questions, prefaced with thoughts trying to get a specific answer or thoughts on usually one part of something complex and how others answer will sway my thinking.
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All that said, it was fun writing and answering and thanks for the fun. The feeling used part is an after thought, because when I went to see if I could help you out in other areas by reading other posts you made, they were all similar. I even feel as if you made an new name on here just so you could feed the questions to us, hiding who you really are. oh well,... it was fun and even with what I said, me being me I'll proly give another a shot. ... :(
 
The washer's on the front end will be at extremes, and you have created an uphill battle for weight to transfer, effectively slowing/reducing weight transfer off the LR.
And unless you have a floating brake hub and sprocket carrier yhe brake rotor could rub, and you could have chain problems

Just read what I think your referring to. LOL, sorry I didn't read it before I made my post. I sure could have made my post a lot shorter, if I did.

... :) nice post

thanks

paul
 
From my experience, If I place the chassis closer to the axle, LR jacked down same cross it transfers' quicker onto the RR. Jacking axle away from th LR does the opposite. Slows down the transfer. I have also done this using right side stagger. RF bigger the RR. Another way is axle stiffners or axle collars loaded up on the left side of the axle.
 
Thanks for the info, IMHO well worth reading.

And as usual the way my mind wanders and mixes stuff up it got me thinking about something.

Reading your post it dawned on me that stuff happening slower out on the track, seems to have to relate to where you are on the track when something happens. Sorry that was confusing to me too. ... :)

I'm talking about "really" being able to tell if something happens slower or just less of it happens. It got me wondering because if you expect something to happen at a particular place out on the track, because your moving if you really do make it happen slower, it also has to happen at a different place on the track. So if make an adjustment, how do you tell if what you did changed how much of something changed as far as effort changing at a particular place on the track or did the same thing happen effort wise but got moved to a little different point on the track. And then it gets me thinking at a different point on the track, even the shape of the turn your taking also may have changed. ... sorry getting long winded again and didn't start off to be long on this. I'll stop and hope my point/question is seen, really hoping it's even a point worth thinking about. ... yeah I like to hound on stuff when I write I think it's because i'm so insecure about my thoughts being correct or not, but if something happens slower, doesn't it follow that it has to happen at a different spot on the track?

thanks and I'm not at all trying to argue, I think your right and i'm just adding stuff it made me think about.

paul
 
Well we as beings of high intelligence tend to over think almost every aspect of anything worthy of our thoughts,as do I myself,then catch myself and regroup and return to a simple state of mind,make my changes and speed is always the end out come.So my racing experience shows what u should try is to on a level scale pad driver in place,use a digital level,(longacre has a nice one)and level the right side frame rail,then set your numbers,making cross adjustments with the left side washers or rear adjuster,then check the levelness of the right rail again,and as a rule of thumb for this technique of optimal weight transfer,keep cross within a few percent of each other,for example my best luck comes at 60% cross and 60% left side and use high nose percentages and air pressure to get the kart free and out of the track,like 47% to 48.5% and at minimum 10 psi
 
Well we as beings of high intelligence tend to over think almost every aspect of anything worthy of our thoughts,as do I myself,then catch myself and regroup and return to a simple state of mind,make my changes and speed is always the end out come.So my racing experience shows what u should try is to on a level scale pad driver in place,use a digital level,(longacre has a nice one)and level the right side frame rail,then set your numbers,making cross adjustments with the left side washers or rear adjuster,then check the levelness of the right rail again,and as a rule of thumb for this technique of optimal weight transfer,keep cross within a few percent of each other,for example my best luck comes at 60% cross and 60% left side and use high nose percentages and air pressure to get the kart free and out of the track,like 47% to 48.5% and at minimum 10 psi

Are you running asphalt or a jr1?
 
All I know is that's the first time I've ever seen numbers like that posted. Funny part is that's very close to the numbers we run on our jr1. Works good for us.
 
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