Track Tac

toe in ?

I always square the right side, then toe LF out 1/16... as far as doing it, I have an accutoe, I've done it with straight wheels, 5ft levels, and tape measures before then measured across... make sure your pitman arm is centered when setting the toe lock and squaring the right side
 
I can't prove it, but I can't help but think that when you're going down the straight, both wheels will be pointed in the same direction, in other words, they will split the toe. Let's face it, with stagger, the kart always wants to turn left anyway, so you're always fighting that.

No matter where you have the toe set, in the turns, it's going to change. Your Ackermann steering is going to turn your left wheel farther than the right wheel.

Here's something to try; set the toe wherever you want, then turn the wheel and measure the toe again.

In Sprint racing, I always set the total toe at 1/16 inch in. Evenly divided between the 2 front wheels. The thinking was that if this was the right amount of toe, both wheels would be pointed in a straight line down the straight. The thinking was that there was some amount of give in the steering geometry and under load the 1/16 toe would have the wheels pointed straight.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
 
I do the same as Kyle and I also use a accutoe. But the newest issue of chasin racin in the tech barn section it says square leftside , 1/16 out on right.Does it really matter?
 
Toeing out the left side vs right side does not matter as long as the pitman arm is close to centered. The kart will center itself on the wheel with the most weight on it and the steering wheel will be slightly turned one way or the other. More important to do the toe with a driver in the kart, set it where you want it , then recheck it with no driver. The no-driver setting is where you want it while setting it on the stand.
While I'll adjust the toe if it's 1/16 from where I want it, I don't know why I do. we've finished races with the toe bent out 1/4+ and the kart was still fast.
 
0151titanriders said:
When u say right side out that's the front of the tire towards the outside of the track or towards the infield ?
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it's not a reference to the track, it's a reference to the kart. Pointed in the direction of the center of the kart, (toe-in) or pointed in the direction of the outside of the kart, (toe-out).

Or you could think of it as a reference between the front wheels. One, or the other, or both pointing towards each other or away from each other.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
 
Al, in LTO racing there is a difference in the why and logic of setting up with toe either set, with both tires initially pointing straight and splitting the toe; lining up the right side tires and setting the toe by moving the left front outward; and lining up the left side tires and moving the right side tire outward.

We understand and know there are three ways to set toe and understand the reasoning and logic between each of the three. It does not apply Al, to karts which turn both left and right. Please note if you research on here, most all will say square up the right side tires and then set your toe with the left front. Yet post #6 in this very thread explains PRC the leading kart manufacture's setup sheets, recommends putting the toe to the right front.

I'm sure this can be very confusing, I know it always is to me because I do always forget reasons for each. But there is solid reason and logic for each.

The reality of the answer and most of the reasoning Al, is toe and ackerman, ya need some. Beyond that it becomes very complex and all encompassing.
 
Well, no, Paulkish, we (I) don't understand the reasoning and logic of the three. 1st, if you're introducing your Ackerman at the spindle (steering arm) end, why would you want to align with the pitman arm anything but centered (if you are only introducing toe adjustment to one side, you are simply "un centering" the pitman) ? If your creating Ackerman at the pitman arm, wouldn't toe requirements vary with corner radius? What about rear axle lead/ trail? Any one do it, and if so , I'm assuming squaring to the rear goes out the window- what about aligning to thrust angle? Why is 1/16 the number, and why isn't it measured in degrees? What role does tire diameter play in toe measurement- if your using toe plates, shouldn't your reference point on the plates duplicate tire diameter/reference? What diameter does an accutoe replicate, and how would you use one with driver in?
 
It does make a difference if you square left side or right side first. If you reallyyyyy think about it or do it on a set of scales you will see it and go DOHHH
 
Squaring the left or right does make a difference with the way they measure legality of wheelbase. Wheelbase has been measured by putting your toe lock pin in and measuring from axle center to spindle shaft center. If you have toed your left out, this measurement and measuring style will indicate a shorter wheelbase. Leftside wheelbase was a big issue not too long ago and some manufacturers had a lot of chassis in use that had short wheelbases. If you square the left and toe the right out, the wheelbase measures longer using this measuring method.
 
0151titanriders said:
When u say right side out that's the front of the tire towards the outside of the track or towards the infield ?
Click to expand...
Toe out is always the front of the tire....at the spindle line, farther from the centerline of the kart, than the back edge of the wheel/tire assy.

Positive camber is always a stance with the top of the tire, further away from the centerline of the kart, than the bottom.
Positive caster always has the top of the kingpin (in karts) angled back toward the rear.

There are other measurements, both static and dynamic to understand. My suggestion is to start out with
factory settings when seeking the perfect setup.

These are always set with the kart not in motion....or...in a static condition. These measurements are always changing once the kart begins to roll, and yet more, when cornering. That's a big part of why "setup ain't easy."
 
Legend said:
If you have toed your left out, this measurement and measuring style will indicate a shorter wheelbase.
Click to expand...
this is crazy! Measuring a wheelbase and having it turn up wrong because the toe in/toe out is 1/16 of an inch!! How crazy would a manufacturer have to be to build a kart so close to breaking the rules that a little toe out could make the difference between winning a race or getting disqualified?? Situations like this remind me of "Alice in Wonderland".

It reminds me of a question I once read; if hide and seek was made the national pastime today, what would the rules look like 20 years from now?

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley) turned down to normal right over you know that it could
 
alvin l nunley said:
this is crazy! Measuring a wheelbase and having it turn up wrong because the toe in/toe out is 1/16 of an inch!! How crazy would a manufacturer have to be to build a kart so close to breaking the rules that a little toe out could make the difference between winning a race or getting disqualified?? Situations like this remind me of "Alice in Wonderland".

It reminds me of a question I once read; if hide and seek was made the national pastime today, what would the rules look like 20 years from now?

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley) turned down to normal right over you know that it could
Click to expand...

It would take a pretty powerful manufacturer to get the wheelbase rule changed wouldn't it? Do some homework Al......
 
spotteddawg said:
yep...but if you square the R/f to the RR after that, you're Toeing it OUT
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Yes, but not because of which side you squared first. All you are doing here (to toe) is turning the steering slightly to the right and all you are measuring is the ackerman effect. The change in handling is not about the toe change. Other than the ackerman cause by the position of the pitman arm, it doesn't matter which side you start on, left, right or split the difference The position of the pitman can be done with any of these starting points in mind. I don't know anyone so precise with their pitman position that 1/16" change in either side wheel will make any difference. As long as the wheels are toed in/out relative to each other AND your pitman arm is right to give you the ackerman you want, it doesn't matter where you start measuring as long as you do it the same each time.

Toeing the left wheel out doesn't mean it will stay that way when rolling down the track, it won't The kart will find it's steering point by making you turn the wheel to make it go the direction you want to go in. In theory the wheel with the most weight on it at the moment will be most in control of the direction you are going.

Just like if you move the rear back 1/16 you are not driving down the track straight with the rear pointing to the right. The rear will point itself straight down the track by making the kart crab walk with the rear wheels tracking to the right of the front wheels. Which will make you turn the steering to the right in order to make your crab walking kart go straight. Which in the end does something very similar to moving out your RR wheel and moving in your LR wheel

Having said all this, I think toe is one of the least most important settings and as long as you are close, with the steering pretty straight you're fine. So many other big things to worry about.
 
MikeleoneCT said:
Just like if you move the rear back 1/16 you are not driving down the track straight with the rear pointing to the right. The rear will point itself straight down the track by making the kart crab walk with the rear wheels tracking to the right of the front wheels. Which will make you turn the steering to the right in order to make your crab walking kart go straight. Which in the end does something very similar to moving out your RR wheel and moving in your LR wheel
.
Click to expand...

dead on about moving the rear axle forward or back, it just changes the Yaw or the track the rear tires track in relationship to the front end, it also slows weight transfer to the RR and quickens the return to the LR

I set my toe as close to zero or even 1/16 in, deflection in the steering will create toe out on both
 
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