Why did my alcohol fail?

mrpoose

Member
Is it water in my tank? Bought an aluminum tank in July for my champ kart. I have left the tank with alcohol in it between races. I have a check valve in the vent hose for the tank from the tank cap. I put duct tape on the end of the hose when I get home after the races. The kart is always on the stand except to race and when I haul it in the back of my truck. My barn is not climate controlled. The distilled water test turned cloudy after the race on Saturday. Unless I have been sabotaged, very unlikely, I can't think of anything else. I'm a rookie, so my mistakes are many. Only the spout of the plastic fuel can has touched the inside of the tank. I don't want this to happen again. Thanks!
 
Did at any time you use your oil funnel to transfer the fuel , maybe when you poured the fuel from the jug you got from the vendor to your own fuel can ?
 
Any tank will create it's own weather conditions with temperature change. Alcohol is hygroscopic (will absorb/mix with water). Short story. Temperature change and sweating in the tank loaded your alcohol with water. Hard to stop. You can't get the air out of the tank.
The aluminum tank didn't help since metal is more responsive to temp changes. We've all gotten bad alcohol from a drum kept outside in the elements. Drain, leave open and dry, fill at race time.......
 
Is it water in my tank? Bought an aluminum tank in July for my champ kart. I have left the tank with alcohol in it between races. I have a check valve in the vent hose for the tank from the tank cap. I put duct tape on the end of the hose when I get home after the races. The kart is always on the stand except to race and when I haul it in the back of my truck. My barn is not climate controlled. The distilled water test turned cloudy after the race on Saturday. Unless I have been sabotaged, very unlikely, I can't think of anything else. I'm a rookie, so my mistakes are many. Only the spout of the plastic fuel can has touched the inside of the tank. I don't want this to happen again. Thanks!

Water will never turn Methanol cloudy. A slight swirl when the water is added might happen but water will never cloud methanol. Water and methanol are miscible. Miscible means you can mix them in any ratio and they will always mix. You want water free methanol to race but water in methanol will never cause a failure except for a bad specific gravity or a bad dielectric constant.
If you fail for any of these reasons your engine won't run.

Randy
 
Methanol should never be left in aluminum tanks, as it evaporates it will eventually leave only a powder of oxidized alum, which will clog everything, Plastic tanks work much better.
 
Plastic tank, as Jack says, nylon fitting, and always drain and rinse the tank.
Always run the engine on gas after the race, before leaving the track.
You will need to turn the hi and lo down, say a half turn, and keep the engine rpm high,
or else the engine will quit. When it starts blowing smoke out the exhaust, and running really
poorly it has cleansed the system of alky.
Alky EATS aluminum and other metal.
 
I know it is not a transfer problem to the top of the fuel containers or to the tank. It could possibly have been the Marvel Mystery oil/gas mix dropping down the line from the fuel pump. I purge at the end of the night by shutting off the flow from the tank, pulling the hose at the tank and putting it into the Mystery oil/gas mix. I may have not dumped all the mix left in the line when I plugged the line back into the tank. When I reopened the valve on the tank, some of the gas/oil mix may have entered the tank. (I have changed that process so that won't be possible in the future) But, wow! The fuel + distilled water mix almost looked like skim milk. Is it possible the alcohol resting in the aluminum tank is truly causing the problem? Of course, in the meantime, I will never store any alky in the fuel tank in the kart. I just want to make sure when I pour alky into the aluminum tank at 3 PM when I get to the track that I will pass the distilled water test at 11:45 PM.

Yes, I will buy a plastic tank if needed, but I don't want to do so if better management of the aluminum tank solves the problem. Thank you to all of you guys for trying to help me. I truly appreciate your feedback!! Thanks again.
 
Did the fuel in your fuel jug pass. Better check it. Was it a new fuel jug and nothing but alcohol been in it?
Yep, Like H&H said^^check it..^^ and recheck...

We have bought what we thought was good fuel...and later found out that what we just bought was contaminated... as well as most of what the vendor was selling at the track. He got a bad batch...and had it mixed in his stock. Always check it out...before you wind up contaminating your tank and fuel system.. Using old jugs/containers can just be asking for problems. Just because, it looks clean doesn't mean it is clean and won't cause you a problem. Doesn't take much to contaminate a lot. It should never be cloudy or like skim milk..

When I was involved in selling ..we first tested every drums content, always added to and sold in only new...jugs;.. would never add to or even sell or add it in a used jug. Also, did random tests..on our stock. Many times tested as we were selling it.. Never had a problem...

Well I'll take that back...One time running a flat head class and after winning the race we failed the fuel test. That was shortly and moments after coming off the track cheering....So, NO ^$#* WAY!!!! Checked out jug it was OK... but, but, Someone must have done it...when we weren't looking. ??? The next morning after pulling the tank and checking, we finally discovered the cause... a very small hairline crack on top of the tank under the carb. That answered the reddish tint ....and the cloudy was caused by.. what was contained in the dirt from the tracks surface.. (oil/prep) It had collected on top of the damp tank and was then washed into the cracked tank. "COSTLY"
 
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The way it was explained to me, by a chemist friend of mine, alcohol does not attract water, it turns into water when exposed to free hydrogen atoms. As you can see from the picture, the alcohol molecule has an oxygen atom connected with one hydrogen atom. For reasons unknown to me, the oxygen atom wants to attach itself to 2 hydrogen atoms. This gives us H2O, water. It's the reason there's so much of it. So your alcohol does not attract water, it attracts hydrogen atoms and turns to water. The hydrogen atom, being the smallest atom, can get through the smallest spaces.
 
Is it water in my tank? Bought an aluminum tank in July for my champ kart. I have left the tank with alcohol in it between races. I have a check valve in the vent hose for the tank from the tank cap. I put duct tape on the end of the hose when I get home after the races. The kart is always on the stand except to race and when I haul it in the back of my truck. My barn is not climate controlled. The distilled water test turned cloudy after the race on Saturday. Unless I have been sabotaged, very unlikely, I can't think of anything else. I'm a rookie, so my mistakes are many. Only the spout of the plastic fuel can has touched the inside of the tank. I don't want this to happen again. Thanks!

After we left the track It occurred to me that your fuel was probably ok. The tech man failed to rinse his turkey baster between checking 2nd places fuel and your fuel. 2nd places fuel was un-doubtedly bad (upper-end lube) and it coated the inside of the turkey baster for several checks after. Which would explain why your fuel in your jug and 1st places fuel passed, because the samples were taken without the baster. You can perform the water test on your own to be sure, its simple all you need is a fuel sample and some distilled water, if it clouds like it did before then maybe the aluminum tank theory is true?...

PS. private message me for Stateline information if you still need
 
Sounding like the tech man found dirty fuel and did not clean his equipment properly.
After his cleaning he needs to verify its clean by doing the water test with his "control" fuel.

Only then should he start checking more fuel.

As stated do your own testing weekly on race day to make sure your clean.
 
Water Absorption of Methanol
Since methanol is completely miscible in water, before or during methanol droplet burning in air, methanol will absorb water. The effect of water absorption results in a non d-square combustion behavior and promotes flame extinction. If a Damkohler number, defined as the ratio of a diffusion time to a chemical time, becomes too small, then there is insufficient time in the flame surrounding the liquid sphere for the chemical heat release to occur, and the flame is extinguished. This flame extinction occurs when the liquid sphere reaches a critical minimum diameter.

In our study, two limiting approaches, perfect liquid-phase mixing and pure diffusion, are adopted to pursue the water-absorption analysis. The corresponding results are summarized here.

The square of the droplet diameter as a function of time for droplets initially 1 mm in diameter, burning in air at pressure p = 1 atm and temperature T2 = 300 K and in a helium-oxygen mixture with the oxygen mole fraction of 0.5 at p = 1atm and T2 = 300 K; and for a droplet initially 0.7 mm in diameter, burning in air at p = 0.25 atm and T2 = 300 K; solid lines are for perfect liquid-phase mixing, dashed line are for time-dependent liquid-phase diffusion, points are experimental data from literature:

The droplet diameter and the extinction diameter as functions of time with time-dependent water absorption for perfect liquid-phase mixing, for droplet initially 1 mm in diameter, burning in two different atmospheres at p = 1 atm and T2 = 300 K, illustrating how extinction conditions are determined:

The extinction diameter and the water mass fraction in the liquid at extinction, as functions of initial droplet diameter, for perfect liquid-phase mixing, for burning in three different atmospheres at T2 = 300 K:

back copied from a website http://web.eng.ucsd.edu/mae/groups/combustion/NASA/water.html and first sentence says methanol will absorb water
 
"We are gathered here today to pay our respects to the dearly departed." The fuel was dearly and we should make it departed. "In other words, the (methanol) dead"
 
sorry lol cant stand these comments sometimes about molecules atoms and therory why this and that

Glad to hear your ok man. I thought for a minute that you had been possessed by some other guys on here. "Can I get a light buddy" No.
Sorry I didn't see your methanol and water was in measurable balls. Lol.
 
Sorry I didn't see your methanol and water was in measurable balls. Lol.
LOL that's the way they show it in Wikipedia. Everything is made up of atoms and molecules. Molecules being a mixture of different atoms. I don't know where they came up with the illustrations, but I'm pretty sure the guys that did them are a lot smarter than me, and possibly you.

Tell me something; are you implying that my explanation about how alcohol becomes water, that it doesn't attract water, is not correct?

Now it's possible that my explanation is not correct, but it sure seems plausible. I suppose it's possible that my college graduated chemist friend didn't know what he was talking about. I'm sometimes too trusting. lol

Question; M.D.racing, Is that short for "Doctor racing"? lol
 
LOL that's the way they show it in Wikipedia. Everything is made up of atoms and molecules. Molecules being a mixture of different atoms. I don't know where they came up with the illustrations, but I'm pretty sure the guys that did them are a lot smarter than me, and possibly you.

Tell me something; are you implying that my explanation about how alcohol becomes water, that it doesn't attract water, is not correct?

Now it's possible that my explanation is not correct, but it sure seems plausible. I suppose it's possible that my college graduated chemist friend didn't know what he was talking about. I'm sometimes too trusting. lol

Question; M.D.racing, Is that short for "Doctor racing"? lol

Just joking around Al. Way over my head..Look back. I'm the idiot that suggested that his tank was sweating and the water was making his fuel cloudy. I'm still trying to get my foot out of my mouth. I tryed to make it sound so good too....lol. Mad Dog Racing. Take Care.
 
I can't compete with all the science, sarcasm, and humor. I can tell you what happened when I worked on the tank last night. I had emptied and dried it out. I put about 4-5 oz of got alky and shook it well. I tested the rinse alky with distilled water and it was cloudy like skim milk. I repeated the process for another rinse. This time, much less cloudiness. Repeated again and still a slight cloudiness. A 4th time was clear when mixed with distilled water.

I will test it again before I put the tank back on.

I did put a little bottled water in some good alky and then added distilled water. It resulted in a clear solution. Hmmmmm...
 
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