WKA 4 Cycle RR Changes

C

CaptJack

Member
Okay,

Here is some of the feedback I've gotten already. Please add your comments if you would like.

Tech:
There is some concern that we are getting further and further away from any kind of body tech. I know it has been quite a few years since anything other than the seat height template has been used. I believe with all the newer racers coming in, it would be a good idea to do some body tech. Thoughts?
The other area is obviously engine tech. While there was a teardown in one of the races this last week. It was the exception and not the rule. None of us want to tear a motor down. But realistically there are only a few things on these Animals that will make a big difference. And we seldom check those things. A degree wheel and an occasional open of the side cover could help some of the ongoing concerns about motors.

Gold Cup Rules:
We have to figure out by the next race what rules are going to be followed for the Gold Cup Pro Gas class. Remember this class was intended to be "take it from the Sprint track, add dual brakes and run it on the big track." Some of the areas that need addressed to keep it this way; do we want a maximum nose height? minimum nose width? Motor side cover to side panel distance? stock black pro-gas flywheel cover? Others?

Give me some feedback here.

Thanks
Jack Reall
 
I believe that motor tec was better then it has been I had 3 of my motors torn down joe had 2 torn down and while we were waiting to be torn down I saw 2 more torn down.
 
Hi Jack,
I agree with Robert. I know for a fact that Animal Masters 410 and Clone/LO206-385 were torn down more than I had seen in any of the past races I 've attended at Daytona. I personally assisted with four Animals and two Clone teardowns. Mr. Tom checked more parts and pieces than in any past events. I also witnessed the Linsells, Thomasons, and B-man go through the same tech procedures as the rest of us. Several other racers left their motors in tech in order to prepare for races later in the day using other motors. Most of my day Monday was spent in tech and re-assembling engines. Our same engines were teched both days.

As for Gold Cup, I feel that it needs more clarification. I overheard a gentleman in registration that trying to enter the race. He was told that there was not a Gold Cup class and that he needed to find Brandon or some other official to find out what class fit his criteria. I saw him again when I was getting our third kart pre-teched...still frustrated, unable to find anyone to answer his questions. At that moment, I saw Brandon and several other officials near us so I pointed them out to this gentleman. I don't know how the story ended, only that new racers don't need to be sent all over the place to seek out information. Someone should be able to answer their questions. All of this occurred on Sunday. Just my observation....I'm glad we can discuss these things and hopefully work together to make RR better for all competitors.
 
I was asked if we could arrange the schedule at the Roebling Road national so that the 4 cycles would not have to swap weights, for those running two classes.
Example; Saturday 360, 385. Sunday 385, 360.
Seems like a simple request. With the loss of the 335 class, we have some crews bolting on some serious weight.
 
This should happen part of the year as the Day one classes move up each race and Day two move down each race.
 
Well I have my idea on how to make tech easier on everyone ! Or this is my idea --- In Gold Cup ,we seal the motors after we before we qualify ---- I know this isnt "Gold Cup" ---- Seal the motor on the first day and then tech it the second day . Also if a driver wants to use his motor again after tech on the first day get it teched and then reseal it in the tech room -- Thus you have the bottom end teched and as long as the seal isnt broken then the crank case doesnt need reopened or Have the same tech each race and do the same to all classes ----- i dont like the signing off of tech because if someone gets beat and doesnt sign off then they appear to be a cry baby cause they got beat ------------- A good problem with the road race tech is that it has grown in the four cycle classes and better and better drivers and equipment is showing up as seen by some of the results !!!!


Peewee MGM Fab
 
I think most of you know, both Regan and I have been at this for a very long time, both tech certified many times, and of course as builders, see inside hundreds of engines. I do not think cheating is rampant, I think the perception that some people are, is getting out of control.
Even before coming to Daytona this year, both the kid and myself have gotten phone calls about cheating and or lack of catching it. Its been happening for quite awhile.
Personally I don't think this is the case at least wide scale. Certainly there are some questions and people are keeping track.
What has to be accepted is the obvious, people are not going to cheat in the easy to tech areas, problem being here is the areas where cheating is more likely to happen are also quite a bit harder to tech, basicly more time consuming. THAT IS WHAT IS UNACEPTABLE and needs to be fixed.
We came through the days when Morgan and Bobby did dirt, you know you would come back with your crank in hand if you finished well, and you knew you would be teched to some degree after qualifying and befor grid for the race. Even in our days of doing every NRRS race, maybe we didn't always go down to the crank, but we never had Sundays off either.

I think there's several ways this could be addressed without causing to much problems. Some random ideas;

Paint engines on Sat. for those unable to re-assemble themselves, Sun tech covers both days.

Draw a number after race, deeper tech on fewer people each day. Goal here, techmans time.

Something Regan does at the Sprint series he runs out here. Pull a piece of paper from a hat, whats on the paper is what you get for tech. Could be bore and stroke, could be roll cam, could be check spark plug. What you pull is what you get. The fear is there.

This one would be up to WKA but I've heard comments there making money, well, spend some of it, get Tom some help.

Our family has always felt that if we win a big race, and if we don't get seriously teched, we wouldn't come back. I never want questions on whether we were legal. Holding our heads up high is much more important then getting home an hour earlier
 
Amen MR. Bob-------- and glad that you were there . If it werent for folks like you and your sons , NRRS wouldnt be where it is now !

Glad you made it

Peewee
 
Just a suggestion, could the weight be reduced for those that run other animals(stock, pro gas, and lo206) in limited modified? Even a couple of pounds would shave my 230lb kart weight.
 
That, Desi199 is what I have been referring to as the "Kitchen Sink class" I see what you are saying, but I think even a few pounds different won't make a difference against the LM's One kart I know came across almost 20lbs heavy and still got a podium. This class is really just to be able to run anything without adding more classes. One thing you got going for you though over LM's is that they have a reliability issue, they break often. A little history, In the past the LM's had their own classes with two weights 360/385 and virtually everyone ran the same weight both days, with the exception of a few light guys I know that wouldn't bolt on to run 385.

Bob V, (glad to finally meet you in person btw), We've done the block painting before, and I think it works well, especially with the F1/F2 format if you only run one class. But if you run two, you almost need to have a motor for each class. But that is something for the competitor to decide.
I think that the depth of the tech was appropriate at Daytona. Larger classes got teched deeper than smaller classes, it was Tom's call. I stood around in tech waiting (on the bubble), but was happy to do so. I agree that for these large racing events there needs to be more tech men. I think Tom was even pulling double duty at the dirt track.
Tech out of a hat? I think these guys pretty much do that anyway. They decide on what they are going to tech before (if only seconds) they start teching a class. There are lots of things that you can tech, some really don't factor in to increased hp (OAL rockers?) but others can, cam and ports for instance. Focus on those areas where "cheating" or out of spec is the biggest difference, that will save time.
For awhile I think WKA was a little light on engine tech, and people complained, I've seen an increase in tech and I think it is good. It does slow down the results getting posted and that can cause problems. Sue did a pretty good job announcing when results were posted, something that doesn't always happen. We could use more of this as the clock starts ticking upon posting.

Jack, Gold Cup rules most definitely need to be made clearer, or strengthened. There was a lot of spirit and intent as to the rules when first initiated, and some rules that were assumed but were not actually rules. This may have kept the entries lower. While I didn't hear of any problems as Daytona, racers will in time start pushing the boundaries. I am not a gold cup kart expert, or even a novice. The rules you suggest sound like a good start. Again the intent is to let someone gain the experience by running a GC kart one day on the big tracks, and then on the small tracks that same day, not to allow a new class of kart to be created over time.
As for body checks for Sprint/Enduro karts? I haven't seen the need for anything other than seat height checks, other than checking the seat braking vertical plane of rear axle. I think most everyone is pretty close on this with their kart bodies. The rules are there, the tech man can always pick from them.
 
The reason for adding additional motors in the mod class was if u blew your modified motor ,you could run any motor that you had in order to still get points for the day -------- Not the "Kitchen Sink " class

The gold cup rules are in the tech manual --- and state the tech

The motor needs to be sealed to make it a fair tech for two day s !!!
Ask anyone who ran gold cup back in the day had a paint kit

The motors need to be sealed

Just saying



Peewee
 
Funny thing here, sometimes the fear of tech, is just as effective as really doing it. Whats hurting us here, is there are somethings that haven't been done for so long, maybe people assume they won't be. That alone is enough to start the rumor mill flying. I think many of us know thats happening now.
As said earlier, the most important thing to me if we do well at a race, is leaving no questions unanswered. I've seen complete series almost disappear because their racers did not have faith in the tech being done.Trust me as the former engine builder in the family, there are many ways to cheat.
Back in the days when WKA had real tech seminars, not the stupid SAE waste of time they have now, Bobby and Morgan would bring all the illegal parts they found all year and show us how and where people were cheating. That doesn't happen anymore, techmen aren't taught that now. Most racers know about it.
It doesn't have to be everyone, every race, but it has to happen enough that people will not think about going there, and even if no one really is doing anything, it will shut down the rumors that make the series look bad
 
Peewee158 said:
The reason for adding additional motors in the mod class was if u blew your modified motor ,you could run any motor that you had in order to still get points for the day -------- Not the "Kitchen Sink " class

The gold cup rules are in the tech manual --- and state the tech

Peewee
Click to expand...

Sorry, I jokingly refer to it as the KSC, my term, not others. You are right, it allows you to maintain a point accumulation even if your LM breaks. It also allows others to get track time with anything else they want to run.

I'm not a gold cup person, never was, but again, I maintain that the purpose of the GCRR class is an opportunity for GC racers to come on out to the Enduro events and run on the big tracks. If the rules aren't tightened up, ultimately racers will start doing things to a GC kart that they would never do on a GC short course, thereby creating a new specialized class of kart. This defeats the purpose of the class, i.e. other GC racers that don't want to make changes may not come. The way I see it that was the evolution of the sprint/enduro kart in the first place. We all wanted to allow the changes to be extremely minor and quickly reversible to make it more appealing. Things like body dimensions were assumed to be mandated by GC rules and apparently they aren't, I'm just saying that maybe they should be to keep the class as appealing as possible.

I have no dog in the fight, It's not a class I would ever run. The only value in it for me personally is to provide yet another revenue stream to the racing and help grow or at least maintain what we have. From looking at the field at Daytona, I would declare that we were successful, and to quote Jack, "4 cycles were paying the bills". Not just alky, but the clones, PG, LO206 and GC karts. We also increased entries with the new F1/F2 format.

When we as a group came together and thrashed this out over the past year, then see it pay off, we should all be proud of the decisions we made. Is it perfect for everyone, probably never will be, but it is a good start. The whole attitude at Daytona this year was much more upbeat and positive.
 
Why not have one day devoted to gold cup similar to the old briggs day then all divisons could participate at Daytona.
 
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