Track Tac

AKRA stock clone name change?

I remember guys thinking that drilling a jet was a big deal. I knew JM had been running them but that 07-08 time frame was when the rest of the country got ahold of them and the rest is history. and btw 206 guys I have less then 600 bucks in my bp clone I'm on my 5th clone motor 3 of the 5 are still being used one is setting on the bench waiting to be bored out for bp motors. the only failure I have ever had was the very first one I didn't check the torque specs and the coil came loose and hit the magnet and broke the coil boss.I sold that motor to a guy who jb welded it back together and ran it for the rest of the year.
 
Clones can be renamed, they can be rebuilt, they can have different colors of paint - but the bottom line is that it is simply another blueprint class. Take your hundred dollar engine and throw another $300 in parts at it and build it yourself. Have fun doing it and maybe even be competitive. It's not going to happen at any big race. The top racers are on top engine builders' stuff and it will flat out run. As much as y'all like to say it's all in the tires (and it is to a point), when a guy shows up to your track with a $1200 bp'd clone from a reputable builder, he has as much as 2 CHP advantage over some of the local builder stuff I have seen. I don't care how on top of your tire program you think you are, you are NOT going to make up that kind of deficit. If you can't build a competitive clone on your own or don't want to settle for chasing the same guys week in and week out, pony up the bucks for a bp'd engine or consider what the LO206 has to offer.
The Lo206 sealed motor is not for everyone. Guys that want to get inside their engines and tinker or BP, will be disappointed. Those that want to have an advantage in the engine department by spending for the latest upgrades and insider tricks, will again be disappointed. Those that want to keep rules and costs under control and not get beat by someone's thicker wallet, looking to concentrate their efforts on their tires, chassis, and driving, simply pull the rope and race; consider the LO206 as a credible alternative.

Over-inflating Briggs prices is not helpful to the discussion -- akin to misrepresenting clone pricing. Sure, anyone can homebuild on the cheap. Take a poll across some of the builders in your area as to what they "actually" charge for blueprinted engines, (clone, animal, & flathead) and you'll see it has a lot more parity than some are making it out to be.
The clone will be around for a while yet -- it's biggest threat is a clone of a clone (the predator) and after that, whatever other clone of a clone of a clone comes along.
The Lo206 also has it's market (and it continues to grow.)

-----
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Celebrating 25 years of service to the karting industry
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
 
XXX#40 said:
If everyone blew up the clones I blame the builders and not the engine
I have one of the original BSP engines here that has been raced for 3 years with just freshen ups
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I was the only 1 on a builder engine. Everybody else has a boxstock project engine from jimmy Sims. I agree clones will last a very long time. But around here trying to race clones against an lo206 is like bringing a sling shot up against a machine gun.
 
The 206 program will never take off in the south because of hand picked items,you may get one like everyone else but if i can go through a 100 ill have the best one and you cant do anything about it because it is sealed.
Just one of the problems.
 
The 206 program will never take off in the south because of hand picked items,you may get one like everyone else but if i can go through a 100 ill have the best one and you cant do anything about it because it is sealed.
Just one of the problems.
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Hand pick the LO206 all you want. Not saying there isn't a demand for it, but the return on investment for the 206 is minimal to none. Besides, anyone building clones today does PLENTY of hand-picking already! For that, there most certainly IS a return for going through part after part to pick the "good" ones.

PM to you Ronny with a "friendly" reminder. ;)
 
As if this wasnt known Engine builders of all engines including karts go through numerous parts trying to find more HP,now engine assemblers take what they have put it together and you get what you get.L206

Look tell briggs to sell it for what its worth which is 300 bucks and people will race it.
 
"....you do know what NASCAR stands for right ?"
No Actual Stock Cars Are Represented

"Not for sure 100% what they are doing for rules in 2015 but it is quickly leaning toward a non stock clone or a builder type engine."
Here comes the flathead follies again!

"the Predator is an unregulated motor made in China so how stable is the platform?"
It's not stable. There's already at least four versions of them already, and there will probably be more.

"Affordable racing" is an oxymoron. Racers will spend more than they should to gain an edge. Doesn't matter much what the rules are - rules become challenges.
That said, I agree that we need a relatively cheap starter / low budget class. For now using the Predator can work since there aren't a lot of racing parts available for it - YET. Once we have a number of racing parts that everybody can buy, and / or there are too many iterations of the Predator, we will either have to develop a thick rule book or switch to another engine. To help slow racing from taking over the Predator I suggest requiring that the factory governor be kept fully functional.

A lot of racers like to work on their engines, which is fine. Those should be a step up from the base "cheap" class. The clones are okay for that, especially since flathead parts are getting harder to find. But even with a thick rulebook the costs will go up and up. We've demonstrated that flatheads, and with reed-open 2-cycles before that. Heck, the clones themselves eclipsed $100 years ago.

Maybe a one-source engine like the LO206 is the answer for a "cheap" class? I haven't dealt with them so I'm just speculating... the cost entry point isn't bad if the engine is reliable, but as bullet power points out you can end up with the find-the-best-parts problem (which also hurt the flathead until WKA started opening up the rulebook).

I don't think you can legislate a "cheap" class and expect it to last long. Racers tinker and bend rules, parts come and go... you've got to keep re-evaluating and tweaking choices and rules. But it's still a worthwhile goal.
What could help is getting people to focus upon cheaper local competition instead of fixating on big purses to (hopefully) draw lots of big names.
 
i can build a spec clone cheap,there are engines now that are very close on production numbers.but around here no one wants a engine that cant be built or as you say tinkerd with
 
dodgeram11 said:
At our track last year there was about 15 to 20 clones. This year there was only 1 in the adult classes. Almost everybody blew up a clone. Now they are letting kids run the lo206 and almost everybody was looking into them at the end of the year.
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Sounds to me like your track has a bunch of "almost everybody's" that don't know how to maintain or build an engine. I have over 100 engines out in the field over the last 5 years and not a one of them have blown up.
 
Weddle Racing said:
$500+ is hardly affordable for your average budget racer, thats the problem with the LO206 and why it isnt catching on like some would like it to. Talk to your track about pushing the Predator engines for a pure stock class, there is already a good rule set in place for those engines and the engine can be bought locally for $85-120 just about anywhere, add a pipe, muffler, top plate, fuel pump, clutch, chain guard and go racing. Would cost around $300-350 total including the cost of the engine, and would be a good stock class like clones once were. SPG rules for these engines is a good set of rules and people seem to like them. No need to go trying to change the name or create more rules for the clones, leave them as they are.
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That is the same identical pitch that they used for the clone! It will go down the exact same path! With the exact same results!
One definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I do not own an Lo206 But it does look like it would be the best fit for new drivers and all plate classes.

And in the long run it will be cheaper. That is a proven fact. If you look at the Briggs forum almost all racers that actually own an lo206 say they have raced them for 2 3 years with only a valve job , changing oil, Keeping the air filter clean.
 
The point that Im taking from all of this is: The clone took off like wild fire because it WAS a cheap form of racing. That's why it grew so fast. As racers we shoot ourselves in the foot 99% of the time when we ask for something new and improved. I watched this happen for years at a car track. The track is now closed. The little guys that didn't want to see big money put into the divisions had little say in the matter and now they are sitting at home while the guys that could afford the changes are still racing. I think that a lot of the local kart tracks are seeing the same scenarios now. The guy that wants to race for fun just doesn't want to spend $xxx.xx on a motor. Push the fun racers out of the sport and then all you have is money races. After awhile, the ones in the middle give up to. We are killing the sport ourselves while pointing our fingers at track owners, and engine builders. Just my opinion, but the tracks need to decide who their customers are and base their business plan accordingly. The guys that want to race for money typically have the money to travel. The guys racing for fun typically want to go to the local track where they can race safely and enjoy the ride. That's my $0.02 for what its worth these days.
 
DynoDon said:
Sounds to me like your track has a bunch of "almost everybody's" that don't know how to maintain or build an engine. I have over 100 engines out in the field over the last 5 years and not a one of them have blown up.
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Ur almost spot on. Guys at our track and in my class are well over like 150# over the weight limit. But we don't have enough or a heavy class. And they don't understand a lot about racing. They don't understand why people scale. Or why people but newer karts. One of them is on an 80s frame. Yes I did say 1980s I don't remember the exact year. But they can understand how me and 2 other guys just walk away from them. The only time 1 of them stayed caught up was when they ran a 14cc head with big pipe slide carb on alky and mod 2 cam. And h couldn't even win. Juat stayed caught up
 
your right don these things just keep on going and when it finally wears out parts are so cheap its easy to maintain.Guys if you want a cheap race engine go to a local builder and ask for a engine program and seal the engines,this can be done for 400 or less per engine ready to bolt on and will run a long long long time.I have desinged what you will need in parts and if you have any questions just call and i will pass it on to anyone.
 
The OP originally asked about "establish a class for new racers that is truly a stock clone again" that is a low cost option like the clone was originally. It appears I hijacked the thread a bit with my comment about the LO206 but the responses have been interesting to say the least. I appreciate how people enjoy clone motors as they can tinker with them. I'm a tinkerer. But just like every single racing motor that has come before it that the racer could open and work on money took over and now it's a race to find the last 0.001 HP at just about any cost. Which as any loyal reader of this forum knows by now is the difference between winning and running mid-pack. The Predator is no different, if it starts to catch on it will also turn into a money race.

If you don't want to spend cubic dollars go with a sealed motor like the LO206 and if you're a tinkerer have at the chassis, tires, etc. Sure, even in the sealed classes you will have some people in the more money than brains department buying 10 motors to find the best one. We see it with the big boys in Rotax. But at a local track with racers mainly interested in not having to mortgage the farm to race and just wanting to have fun open motors are never going to be the answer.

Bye for now.
 
mike....Kind a agree with you but soon or later these fellas going start opening up their operating table to the LO206 with knives, needle and wire rope to get .000005 hp more ...The name is racing the motive is speed ..................Where there is a will there is a way ...............
 
racer47 said:
The point that Im taking from all of this is: The clone took off like wild fire because it WAS a cheap form of racing. That's why it grew so fast. As racers we shoot ourselves in the foot 99% of the time when we ask for something new and improved. I watched this happen for years at a car track. The track is now closed. The little guys that didn't want to see big money put into the divisions had little say in the matter and now they are sitting at home while the guys that could afford the changes are still racing. I think that a lot of the local kart tracks are seeing the same scenarios now. The guy that wants to race for fun just doesn't want to spend $xxx.xx on a motor. Push the fun racers out of the sport and then all you have is money races. After awhile, the ones in the middle give up to. We are killing the sport ourselves while pointing our fingers at track owners, and engine builders. Just my opinion, but the tracks need to decide who their customers are and base their business plan accordingly. The guys that want to race for money typically have the money to travel. The guys racing for fun typically want to go to the local track where they can race safely and enjoy the ride. That's my $0.02 for what its worth these days.
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YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!! That's worth WAAAAAYYYYYY more than two cents. :)
 
.....as the Fat Lady sings and Don Merideth says "Turn out the lights...the party is Over!" Well....except is the South-East of course....(I cudn't resist Reb) :)
 
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