Animal BP again

steve baker

steve baker

Moderator
It wouldn't take much to revive the Animal BP engine for kart racing again! I don't think there's any cost difference now when your comparing the animal to the clone! Just needs a few rule revisions and the right people / organizations involved. The WKA #704 Animal engine rules never were right from the beginning and they still aren't even today, but it could be very easy with the right guys involved in some revisions.Not taking anything away from the LO206 program, its definitely been a jewel for Briggs and the karting world, but it might be time to go beyond that, mainly for dirt / pavement oval racing.
In fact blending in some of the LO206 engine specs would be a good start on some revisions to reduce cost and help to level the playing field.

Steve
 
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Steve, I agree that there are some issues with the current WKA animal rules.
What would be some changes that you would like to see (and please don't suggest a move toward pro-gas.) :)

FWIW: We've been building a few more animals this spring for oval racing...mostly out of retired LO206 engines.


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🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
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31 years of service to the karting industry
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Brian, No PG - i get it !

1) For starters i would like to see a minimum oil ring spring length, preferably stock length ( this will eliminate all the smoke on grid and significantly reduces the Methanol in the crankcase! )
2) I do think a spec camshaft would be good idea
3) Fix the current exhaust system............. or at least allow a better design 2 piece with port extension.
4) I really like the rule of the intake burr must be present ( similar to LO206 head port spec ) - but this would force a lot of heads to be replaced!
5) Definitely allow the Cometic - MLS head gasket!

Steve
 
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Like all above.
My thoughts are to attach a restrictor plate to ported head. Need tech, of course.
Make it a slight disadvantage.
Will take care of crying over using existing parts. And if a disadvantage, will self correct.
 
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95 shaw said:
Like all above.
My thoughts are to attach a restrictor plate to ported head. Need tech, of course.
Make it a slight disadvantage.
Will take care if crying over using existing parts. And if a disadvantage, will self correct.
Click to expand...
Possibly might work..............good thinking!
 
Also i would like to see a minimum hole size in the flywheel screen, help to keep engines running cooler. We are our own worst enemy...burning the engines up and warping heads !

Steve
 
We just need to find an organization that will take this project on, the WKA 4 cycle tech team is all gone! Maybe AKRA or NKA ?

Steve
 
Using the Briggs LO206 ignition timing spec would also probably be a good idea....... i.e. 30 degree max. There's no good reason to jack up the timing above 30, all that does is generate more heat and engine damage!

Steve
 
flattop1 said:
Why not Briggs , they currently have there hat in the ring with the 206.
Maybe to far out of the company philosphy .
Click to expand...

That could work..........I've thought over the past few years DK was thinking about the next step for Briggs. But I think he was just not sure and maybe afraid it would mess up the 206 program. Note really sure.......... just a few conversations i had with him awhile ago.

Steve
 
I love the animal platform. I want to see it grow back to what it was when I was still just a spectator. Even then it was a dying class. There have been alot of races I've run mixed with clones and 206s and a few with the opens. Always liked using methanol over gasoline for racing purposes, smells better too. I'll stick with the animal as long as briggs keeps making them.

I hope that one day I'll show up to the track and there will be no more clones lol. At least flatheads sound cool.
 
steve baker said:
It wouldn't take much to revive the Animal BP engine for kart racing again! I don't think there's any cost difference now when your comparing the animal to the clone! Just needs a few rule revisions and the right people / organizations involved. The WKA #704 Animal engine rules never were right from the beginning and they still aren't even today, but it could be very easy with the right guys involved in some revisions.Not taking anything away from the LO206 program, its definitely been a jewel for Briggs and the karting world, but it might be time to go beyond that, mainly for dirt / pavement oval racing.
In fact blending in some of the LO206 engine specs would be a good start on some revisions to reduce cost and help to level the playing field.

Steve
Click to expand...
Undoubtedly the animal is a far far superior engine to the clone and with costs now being similar choosing clone over animal is frankly, foolish.
 
I really don't want to make waves, especially after seeing Brian call out Steve on the Pro Gas deal !! (Ha) I raced the Animal on Speedways and was very happy with it. Not nearly as happy as I am racing the 206, mostly because of the tight rules and minimal costs. The Animal program involved blueprinting engines and of course the trick of the week. For less money using Faster Motors 206 Super Stock engine kit and rules based on the 206 rules you will have one heck of a ride.
I recently tested one at our sprint track and had other drivers try it out. They were more than impressed. The kart was within .6 of a KA100 and my kart had less than fresh tires and 6.0 rears! With the 206 I usually hit about 53 mph ( Masters 380#) and with the Super Stock engine I was over 62!! Cost of the conversion is less than blueprinting an Animal.
I'm not trying to sell anything, just wanting everyone to be aware of this option. The conversion requires no machine work and the rules are in place ( remember that the 206 rules so not allow machine work).
Oh yeah, NO ELECTRIC STARTER NEEDED OR ALLOWED !!!
 
I too see the huge advantage to the superstock conversion championed by Faster Motors. So much so that i am representing the west coast with distributing and advising the kit. I personally have driven the package and am very impressed with the performance. The rules set is very clear and short on gray areas. Easy use of obsolete 206 packages and consumer can perform the mod if they so choose. Tri-C karters sprint club has adopted the class and the So-Cal oval karters are looking at possible adoption. The corona virus has slowed the adoption somewhat however the reception to the concept seems to be spot on. Just saying economically a smart decision for great competition.
 
As a racer, I get the appeal of lower cost.
As an engine builder, sponsor of series, tracks, etc, I like that there is still a BP animal class that we can make a little bit of money on.
I absolutely LOVE the LO206 program and what it has done for sprint karting specifically, but we need to also consider the shops/families who make their living blueprinting kart race engines as well.
Just something to consider.

I like the idea of revisiting the BP animal rules and giving them a fresh update. I'm not sure which sanctioning body would be best to head up a rules update (possibly AKRA or others,) but for sure we need to be all on the same page nationwide. That's a HUGE benefit of the Briggs 206 rules currently.

Dave K. and I had discussed a modified 206 many times. Similar to Jimbo's package, but sealed from the factory. At the time he was excited about the dual 206, which I didn't care for because of the need for another chassis, no application to ovals, etc. We already have/had the World Formula, but his (and my) desire was to use the existing 206 platform. It's my thought that we still need to support local engine builders as they're the ones supporting the local tracks.
 
First off, I would like to thank Baker Racing Engines and Carlson Motorsports for their dedication to the sport of kart racing! Both off you and many others are passionate about making this sport better, not only for the racer but everyone involved.

I would like to follow that statement up with why would we want to go back in time? Why are we having a topic about bringing back a class that’s had its day? It’s a class that I talk about with my son saying back in the day……….

If we want to start a new class (BASICALLY THIS ANIMAL OF WHICH YOU ARE DISCUSSING WOULD BE A NEW CLASS WITH NEW RULES) instead, why don’t we feed off of a program that is the “JEWEL” of kart racing, which is the LO206 PROGRAM like Steve mentioned earlier. How hard would it be for you guys to put some Marketing / Time into the Briggs Super Stock Program that uses the 206!

Here me out, below are comments that were posted previously and every one of these has a solution. 206 BRIGGS SUPER STOCK!!!

LISTED PREVIOUSLY:” I don't think there's any cost difference now when your comparing the animal to the clone”!

ANSWER: YOU ARE CORRECT, THEY BOTH COST TOO MUCH!!! YOU GUYS HAVE ALL THE PARTS TO BUILD A SUPER STOCK BESIDES THE PISTON THAT YOU WOULD PURCHASE FROM JIM AT FASTER MOTORS. TALK WITH HIM! IM SURE HE WOULD LOVE TO WORK WITH YOU GUYS. #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS #MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!


LISTED PREVIOUSLY: “Just needs a few rule revisions and the right people / organizations involved”

ANSWER: YOU ARE CORRECT AGAIN THAT BRINING BACK THE ANIMAL WOULD NEED RULE REVISIONS! SO WHY NOT JUST GO OFF OF A PROGRAM THAT ALREADY WORKS. BRIGGS 206 PROGRAM. THE 206 SUPER STOCK FOLLOWS MANY OF THE RULES THAT ARE ALREADY SET IN THE 206 PROGRAM. ALL YOU NEED TO CHANGE IN THE 206 IS: PISTON, RINGS, CAM, VALVE SPRINGS, ROD, COIL, METHANAL PLUG, GASKET SET IS THE COMPLETE GASKET SET FROM BRIGGS! #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!

LISTED PREVIOUSLY:” In fact blending in some of the LO206 engine specs would be a good start on some revisions to reduce cost and help to level the playing field.”

ANSWER: NOW YOU’RE ON TO SOMETHING!!! BRIGGS 206 SUPER STOCK! #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!

LISTED PREVIOUSLY: “For starters I would like to see a minimum oil ring spring length, preferably stock length (this will eliminate all the smoke on grid and significantly reduces the Methanol in the crankcase! )”

ANSWER: THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS IN THE RULES WITH THE 206 PROGRAM! NICE SUGGESTION! #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!

LISTED PREVIOUSLY: “I do think a spec camshaft would be good idea”

ANSEWER: ONCE AGAIN THIS IS EXACTLY HOW JIM HAS THE RULES WRITTEN WITH THE BRIGGS 206SUPER STOCK! SAME CAM FOR ALL!!! #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!


LISTED PREVIOUSLY: Fix the current exhaust system............. or at least allow a better design 2 piece with port extension.

ANSWER: THE BRIGGS 206 SUPER STOCK ONLY ALLOWS TWO PIPES AND ONE MUFFLER. THE EXACT SAME ONES THAT ARE IN THE RULE BOOK FOR BRIGGS 206. (5506, 5507)
#SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!


LISTED PREVIOUSLY:” I really like the rule of the intake burr must be present ( similar to LO206 head port spec ) - but this would force a lot of heads to be replaced!”

ANSWER: ONCE AGAIN THIS IS A RULE IN THE BRIGGS 206 PROGRAM, SO IT’S A RULE IN THE BRIGGS 206 SUPER STOCK PROGRAM! I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WOULD MAKE SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE ANIMALS PURCHASE NEW HEADS, BUT THEY WILL STILL SAVE MONEY! INSTEAD OF REVIVING A PROGRAM THAT ISINT WORKING, LET’S PUT TIME AND ENERGY INTO SOMETHING THAT IS! LET’S BUILD OFF THE 206 PROGRAM! #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!



LISTED PREVIOUSLY: “Definitely allow the Cometic - MLS head gasket!”

ANSWER: 206 SUPER STOCK PROGRAM USES THE GASKET SET THAT COMES STRAIGHT FROM BRIGGS. GASKET HAS THE FIRE RING. NO ISSUES. #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!



LISTED PREVIOUSLY:” Also I would like to see a minimum hole size in the flywheel screen, help to keep engines running cooler. We are our own worst enemy...burning the engines up and warping heads !”

ANSWER: YOU GOT IT!!! BEST THING YET IS YOU WONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WARPING THOSE HEADS FROM TAPIN’ UP THOSE HOLES! 206 SUPER STOCK USES THE RECOIL THAT COMES WITH THE 206! NO PRICY ELECTRIC STARTER NEEDED! THAT’S RIGHT, IT’S PULL START JUST LIKE THE 206. #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!



LISTED PREVIOUSLY: “Using the Briggs LO206 ignition timing spec would also probably be a good idea....... i.e. 30 degree max. There's no good reason to jack up the timing above 30, all that does is generate more heat and engine damage!”

ANSWER: ONCE AGAIN THE 206 SUPER STOCK HAS SOLVED YOUR ISSUE! NO MESSING WITH THE TIMMING! STOCK BRIGGS KEY WITH LOGO! ALSO HAS THE SAME TECHING FOR TIMMING AS THE 206 PROGRAM. CURRENTLY JIM HAS THE PVL WITH NON REV LIMITING IN THE RULES, WHICH I’M A FAN OF. #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!



LISTED PREVIOUSLY: “Always liked using methanol over gasoline for racing purposes, smells better too.”

ANSWER: YOU CAN RUN THIS BAD BOY ON EITHER GAS OR METHANAL. JUST LIKE YOUR ANIMAL! #SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!



THANK YOU ALL FOR TAKING THE TIME ON HOFULLY READING THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE POST. I WAS HOPING TO PULL A LITTLE SOMETHING FROM ALL THE COMMENTS PREVIOUS OF THIS AND BE ABLE TO SHOW YOU THAT I THINK THE ANSWER IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF US! MOST, IF NOT ALL YOUR CONCERNS ARE COVERED IN THE 206 SUPER STOCK PROGRAM. JIM @ FASTERMOTORS HAS PUT A LOT OF TIME INTO THIS PROGRAM BUT HE CANT DO IT ALONE. IT WOULD BE GREAT IF ENGINE BUILDERS COULD GET IN TOUCH WITH HIM. LET’S BUILD A PROGRAM THAT IS THE NEXT LEVEL FOR BRIGGS RACERS!

GO TO FASTERMOTORS.NET, FASTERMOTORS4@GMAIL.COM OR CALL JIMBO @ 920-207-9180. THIS IS NOT SOME BIG MONEY MAKING SCEAM FOR JIM. THE GUY LOVES THIS SPORT JUST LIKE YOU! I FEEL HE HAS SOMETHING GREAT TO SHARE!

#SUPER EASY!!! #COST LESS # MORE HP #NO BLUE PRINTING! #NO ELECTIC STARTER NEEDED! #NO DECKING THE BLOCK! #NO MACHINING THE HEAD! #NO BLUEPRINTING CARBS! #NO EXPENSIVE PIPES!

Horse Power Comparison

206 Super Stock 13.1 HP
World Formula with Animal Coil 12.5HP
Blueprinted Animal 11.5 to 12 HP
LO 206 9.3 HP
 
Not at all Deadman. Add a few pounds to the Super Stock. Walla run them together.
Just like the LO 206 was developed for the racers I developed this package FOR THE RACERS. (not to get rich quick)
It's always been my theory that if you take care of your customers they will take car of you in return.
I think the 206 program shows what can happen if you take care of the racers.

Example: Many of you can assemble a Super Stock on your own and have fun with your son or daughter in the process.
You may need someone to hone the cylinder for you but any automotive machine shop or kart shop can do that for you quite inexpensively.
Since there is no milling of the head, machining the deck of the block, port work, the carb jets sizes are specified etc it's just a matter of removing the old parts and installing the new ones.
THE RULES are all the same as the LO 206 except for piston, coil, valve springs, cam and spark plug.
Why reinvent the rules? The LO 206 rules are excellent.
I developed it as a less expensive package than an Animal and it turns out it's faster than an Animal
Why go through all the work and expense to blue print and Animal when there are cheaper and better options.
You can buy the complete package from me or Just the piston if you like.
All of the other parts can be bought from other karting shops.
 
I set my shop up in So-Cal to facilitate this endeavor. As an engine builder i offer to the customer a package deal. Bring me a running LO 206 with the obsolete seal and for $600.00 plus the cost of briggs methanol jet kit receive a super stock engine ready for their clutch and pipe with muffler. This is so simple and cost effective on all points. Engine builders can work their own package deal to address the concern. Cheers
 
You guys do realize that the popularity of the LO206 is primarily a sprint/road race phenomenon.
Personally, we have made some inroads in the oval market with the 206, but for the most part, oval racers have rejected spec engine classes (206 included.)

In my opinion, the oval market needs something that makes more power to the wheels so as to overpower the tires akin to the small block opens that are gaining in popularity despite their $2000+ price-tags. With LO206 engines flirting with the $1000 mark, adding another $600 for the super stock kit doesn't have much appeal when compared to an engine that makes nearly twice the power. The current WKA animal engine is comparatively priced. Personally, I don't think that $1600 engines are sustainable in our market.

Not knocking Jimbo's efforts or his ability to make a buck on his idea. I am all for capitalism, but at which point are the parts able to be sourced from other vendors? With the 206 program, the engine parts must all come from the factory. Not so with bolt-on parts like pipes.
Steve's point on the pipe is not the limited part numbers to be used, but rather allowing a better pipe design with the pipe flange insert like his ProGas RLV 5511 pipe.
The Cometic MLS gasket is a no-brainer for me if I'm assembling a new block and head (or allowed to true up the finishes.)
This gasket all but eliminates the pulling of the corners on the 206 heads. The fire ring gasket is probably the WORST for causing this problem. If you're tired of burning head gaskets out on 206s, imagine using that soft graphite gasket on a super stock. Allowing a MUCH improved design Cometic MLS gasket would be a Godsend for the engine...but then again, used engines already have the upper left corner of the head pulled down. Allowing machining drives up the cost even more.

There's no simple answer -- Jimbo's got an idea. Is it fool-proof? Nothing is. Will it catch on? Possibly, but doubtful in the oval market where karting carries HUGE numbers advantage over sprint course racers.

It's just an opinion. I have been wrong before, and could be wrong again. :)
 
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