How about another old saying "You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear."You don’t put a no name tire on a Maserati to keep a high school kid from speeding.
I'm going to have to use that line one day
Billet Rod / CC process
- Thread starter DynoDon
- Start date
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
I get what you are saying, but this engine is so far removed from being "stock" that the lines blurred long ago on what is oem and what is not. We went to a billet flywheel because the stock one wasn't up to handling the rpm of a race engine. Why is a part (billet rod) that is under $70 such a threat to this engine platform? It obviously would save many people DNFs and costly rebuilds. (And before someone says the blocks are $20, I've yet to see a builder replace a block on a rebuild of an engine that the rod went kaboom for just $20.)
If given the choice, (cast rod or billet rod - both being legal) would any builder continue using the stock rods?
(I think there's the answer right there.)
We went down this road with the Chinese cast rods in the flathead 30 years ago and knew enough to protect the racer's investment.
Now we're looking at keeping the cast rod as what? Rpm limiter? Cost savings? Integrity of the class rules intent?
All these went by the wayside when the governor was allowed to be removed!
Burris Racer
Member
I think of the billet rod like an insurance policy. If you don't want it, don't buy it. I'd like to have it as an available option for the guys that want it.
So, what's the next step, when the cheap block or crank fails because of the added stresses from the inevitable rpm increases?
Like I stated before, step up to the next class for that insurance.
Or call this class stock appearing, eliminate a lot of the rules, which seem difficult to enforce.
If want to limit the class, install already available restrictor plates that are easy to tech, with little grey area.
Do whatever as long as it looks stock from 5 ft away. Including rope start.
I'd say leave the stock muffler as well, but that is hard to tech.
Weinie pipe and muffler with a no go on the inlet. Tech limited to removal of carb and pipe.
Safety check on flywheel.
Do whatever beyond those things.
That should bring complete tech for top 5 after every feature to possibility for all tracks.
Claim, maybe? Within 10 minutes of completing tech. After that, it's over. Winner has been declared.
Invest all you want in reliability.
Someone is going to be screwing with the tech items, and complaining when they get caught.
Of course, even F1 with all their rules and tech, are unable to unilaterally declare the winner of a race almost a year ago.
How can karting be expected not to follow suit?
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CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Several good ideas in this post - but that's only if we were to eradicate the current class and start a new one. I don't think that's the discussion point on allowing a billet rod which is of no performance gain, only insurance against losing an engine to catastrophic failure due to a $5 cast ChiCom part. As long as we have a set of stock class rules, then a billet rod is a no-brainer for me, no differently than billet flywheel that is already allowed/mandated.
I see your point with rules enforcement within F1. F1 is purely money for business. For kart racers, this will always be a hobby for 99.9% of our participants. No one is wanting to spend that kind of money (which is why protecting our investment with a billet rod in the stock classes, where rpm has been on the increase for the past 10 years, is a wise move.)
Some tracks don't offer S/A classes and most cannot afford (or even desire) to run UAS/opens.
I love big opens, but if folks are scared of a $70 aftermarket part that's proven bulletproof, they won't care much for unlimited racing and spending.
If folks want a "pure stock" (whatever that means today) engine class, then most tracks offer a Harbor freight Predator class.
The clone has long been a fully blueprinted engine - it hasn't been "stock" in many many years!
The point of my post mostly missed here.
If you can afford the $12-1500 stocker, but feel better because you added another $75 to that price, more power to you.
For that same price, you could have a damn good stock appearing, especially since we've eliminated 2 of the biggest development costs, by making all the "relibility" components legal.
Restricting both ends of the air tract dictates how much power you are going to be able to make.
All the base components cost the same.
Block, crank, cam, head and machine work.
But eliminate the builder work to make the package maybe pass tech, until the next rule change, or midseason update to the tech procedure makes that obsolete.
My point is it's really difficult to obsolete rules, or tech procedures with no-go gauges. The name of the tool says it all.
Speeds won't change much, because that can be limited by a simple plate change.
Yes, there will be some developments because of the plate, but no more spring, head, cam, of the month stuff, deterred by tech procedure of the month.
Most will find that current engines will be pretty competitive. The need for better springs will be covered by costs already in place.
Price to up grade entire engine same as current proposed changes. Stable rule set.
Its ridiculous to my way of thinking to continue down the current prescribed route.
Especially since I have no reason to gain anything by staying the course.
Jmho
By the way, this is my solution for the predator class as well.
Throw a .500 restrictor on there and let them have fun.
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Builder can still have an advantage thru testing. Gonna be small, and more able to keep with tech not looking at those items.
These are still simple air pumps.
If you cannot get air in, or air out, really difficult to have an advantage.
Still leave stock appearing option open.
Pull the restrictors and run another class.
Home builders won't need several hundred dollars of tech tools to tell if they can pass national tech.
Yes, compression will increase, cc's will jump up, but plate will bring close together.
Experience with restricted flathead stock appearing stroker tells me this.
Pull the restrictors and run another class.
Home builders won't need several hundred dollars of tech tools to tell if they can pass national tech.
Yes, compression will increase, cc's will jump up, but plate will bring close together.
Experience with restricted flathead stock appearing stroker tells me this.
Stock appearing should be the standard.
But it’s not.
Wonder if there is a correalation between the fact that chassis manufactures and tire companies sponser the series, and engine builders sell chassis and tires to their customers at a higher rate than would otherwise be realized if engine builders weren’t around.
Doubt that’s the case, people would still buy tires and chassis regardless, I just don’t see what the incentive to having a “stock” class is.
Legalize the rod, make the majority happy, promote predator and stock appearing classes to try and shift the tide.
But it’s not.
Wonder if there is a correalation between the fact that chassis manufactures and tire companies sponser the series, and engine builders sell chassis and tires to their customers at a higher rate than would otherwise be realized if engine builders weren’t around.
Doubt that’s the case, people would still buy tires and chassis regardless, I just don’t see what the incentive to having a “stock” class is.
Legalize the rod, make the majority happy, promote predator and stock appearing classes to try and shift the tide.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Couple facts:
You can build a legal stock appearing cheaper than a legal AKRA clone.
Building a competitive stock appearing is considerably more expensive than a legal AKRA clone.
I'm not a fan of plating everything...here's why:
Most time intensive (and thus costly) engines to build are plate engines. Doesn't matter if it's purple plate flathead or Nascar.
Compression will be the #1 thing to sky-rocket. Piston compression height, rod length, stroke, bore size, port welding/filling - you could end up with a short stroke 3" bore engine @ 17:1 that lives for a night or two - I don't think everyone wants to go that route, but as long as one guy does (and there's always that one guy) then everyone will have to step up or settle for second.
Of course we could change the subject to sealed spec engines (ie LO206) vs stock appearings and small block opens. While that might actually address the tech problems, it won't help many of the folks who have current $1000+ AKRA/NKA/XYZ clone engines.
Seems like we're doomed to repeat history - from West Bends & Macs to Predators and Ghosts.
You can build a legal stock appearing cheaper than a legal AKRA clone.
Building a competitive stock appearing is considerably more expensive than a legal AKRA clone.
I'm not a fan of plating everything...here's why:
Most time intensive (and thus costly) engines to build are plate engines. Doesn't matter if it's purple plate flathead or Nascar.
Compression will be the #1 thing to sky-rocket. Piston compression height, rod length, stroke, bore size, port welding/filling - you could end up with a short stroke 3" bore engine @ 17:1 that lives for a night or two - I don't think everyone wants to go that route, but as long as one guy does (and there's always that one guy) then everyone will have to step up or settle for second.
Of course we could change the subject to sealed spec engines (ie LO206) vs stock appearings and small block opens. While that might actually address the tech problems, it won't help many of the folks who have current $1000+ AKRA/NKA/XYZ clone engines.
Seems like we're doomed to repeat history - from West Bends & Macs to Predators and Ghosts.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
I suspect because of the cost difference at the time, Don. You could build 2 stockers for the price of 1 builder prepared. It wasn't just $70 difference.
I don't know what a builder prepared engine would sell for today, but I suspect it's very similar in price to a blueprinted clone.
I build a lot of S/A engines, and aint no way I have a damn good one for $12-1500, not even just the parts, at least not the way I do them.
Would you build them that way for a claimer class?
Claim set at price of parts to build current clone class engine.
If you have more than that in parts, you are probably going to have it claimed.
Claim is intended to keep that type spending in check.
How did the builders prepared rules compare to current clone rules?
Already building several versions of plate engines.
Do you charge more for a blue plate engine vs a unrestricted engine.
Not going to gain anything by installing a large bore carb with the plate being there. Velocity will be king, which involves minimizing turbulence.
Big valves maybe a gain in adult classes. Since we are already doing seat work to maximize the current rule, so no change.
If you can rope start a 3 inch bore 17:1 compression engine and then take advantage of that, then the builder will have earned his money.
Then there is the claim.
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