Cross, Stagger, handling

Landenmosr42

Landenmosr42

Member
So there is a few things I understand but it needs to be cleared up. so I have a problem (what feels like usually) of turning in witch seems like it reflects me leaving bad. So for one I could see it being my driving but it feels like when I get to the corner I dump all of my momentum like the kart feels like I have to turn it in other than it wanting to turn. I'm thinking these are symptoms of cross being too low and stagger being too low. so another thing is how do I feel when my cross or stagger is too low or too high ? when would you want more or less cross? and what are some things I could do to raise or lower them?
 
raise or lower spindles will change cross .
Need setup info before anyone could make a suggestion .
off hand more stagger in the rear .
 
Landenmosr42 said:
So there is a few things I understand but it needs to be cleared up. so I have a problem (what feels like usually) of turning in witch seems like it reflects me leaving bad. So for one I could see it being my driving but it feels like when I get to the corner I dump all of my momentum like the kart feels like I have to turn it in other than it wanting to turn. I'm thinking these are symptoms of cross being too low and stagger being too low. so another thing is how do I feel when my cross or stagger is too low or too high ? when would you want more or less cross? and what are some things I could do to raise or lower them?
Click to expand...
First Remember CROSS is meant to be a Fine tune adjustment to get that last 1/10 out of any given set up combo.
Stagger : More Stagger ( Not added air to get what your looking for, actual stagger ) will decrease the rate of weight transfer from the left side of the chassis to the right side during cornering .
Rear Stagger : Correct rear stagger allows the kart to " track " properly, a kart that is " tracking " properly the outside tires of the kart traveling a distance that does not over run or under run the inside tires while cornering. Excessive rear stagger can cause a kart to turn itself while going down a straightaway, or make the kart extremely loose in the corners, Excessive rear stagger is usually very visible at the RR because it will cause " feathering " on the inside edge of the tire, and can be detected by confirming inside edge temp on the tire will be a lot hotter than middle and outside edge of the RR.
Increase RR stagger when the kart is tight or pushes when entering the corners.
Decrease RR stagger when the kart is loose throughout the entire corner.

Front Stagger : Front stagger does NOT effect tracking because the wheels are not connected by an axle, and spin independent of each other.
RF stagger is often added or removed to increase or decrease cross percentage, Adding will increase cross, decreasing will lower cross.
Increasing RF stagger in effect adds more negative RF camber and Positive LF camber, as well as adding cross.

If you give FULL DETAILS we could help you better.
Based on your other post your on a Minecon correct ? Is the RF spacer block in or out ? Rear Hub spacing RR and LR from inside edge of wheel ( rim ) to cassette hanger ? Front hub spacing in close ? or spacers behind spindle shaft ? Caster setting ? Camber settings ? what class and weight ?
Left % ?, Nose %, Cross % ? Bottom of seat how far up into frame rails ? top back of seat how far off top of axle ? Which Tires ?
 
racing promotor said:
First Remember CROSS is meant to be a Fine tune adjustment to get that last 1/10 out of any given set up combo.
Stagger : More Stagger ( Not added air to get what your looking for, actual stagger ) will decrease the rate of weight transfer from the left side of the chassis to the right side during cornering .
Rear Stagger : Correct rear stagger allows the kart to " track " properly, a kart that is " tracking " properly the outside tires of the kart traveling a distance that does not over run or under run the inside tires while cornering. Excessive rear stagger can cause a kart to turn itself while going down a straightaway, or make the kart extremely loose in the corners, Excessive rear stagger is usually very visible at the RR because it will cause " feathering " on the inside edge of the tire, and can be detected by confirming inside edge temp on the tire will be a lot hotter than middle and outside edge of the RR.
Increase RR stagger when the kart is tight or pushes when entering the corners.
Decrease RR stagger when the kart is loose throughout the entire corner.

Front Stagger : Front stagger does NOT effect tracking because the wheels are not connected by an axle, and spin independent of each other.
RF stagger is often added or removed to increase or decrease cross percentage, Adding will increase cross, decreasing will lower cross.
Increasing RF stagger in effect adds more negative RF camber and Positive LF camber, as well as adding cross.

If you give FULL DETAILS we could help you better.
Based on your other post your on a Minecon correct ? Is the RF spacer block in or out ? Rear Hub spacing RR and LR from inside edge of wheel ( rim ) to cassette hanger ? Front hub spacing in close ? or spacers behind spindle shaft ? Caster setting ? Camber settings ? what class and weight ?
Left % ?, Nose %, Cross % ? Bottom of seat how far up into frame rails ? top back of seat how far off top of axle ? Which Tires ?
Click to expand...
So this post was based off of something I noticed racing my charger prodigy (standard) that I recently got and I ran it one weekend so far and I could provide more information but this is what I have in my notes on that kart. I run a 375 adult clone on maxxis

Left- (61.7)
Front- (45.2)
Cross- (67.5)

Stagger
Front- 1 1/2
Rear- 1 1/4

Caster
Left 7
Right 9

Camber
Left +.25
Right -2.75

seat is 9 in from the Axle and the bottom is about on the floor pan
Rear hubs are 4 1/4 Left and 4 1/2 (face of the hub to the cassette hanger)
Front one spacer on the inside of the LF and 2 on the inside of the RF
 
Landenmosr42 said:
So this post was based off of something I noticed racing my charger prodigy (standard) that I recently got and I ran it one weekend so far and I could provide more information but this is what I have in my notes on that kart. I run a 375 adult clone on maxxis

Left- (61.7)
Front- (45.2)
Cross- (67.5)

Stagger
Front- 1 1/2
Rear- 1 1/4

Caster
Left 7
Right 9

Camber
Left +.25
Right -2.75

seat is 9 in from the Axle and the bottom is about on the floor pan
Rear hubs are 4 1/4 Left and 4 1/2 (face of the hub to the cassette hanger)
Front one spacer on the inside of the LF and 2 on the inside of the RF
Click to expand...
Looks like you're in the ballpark on setup. Can't suggest changes from where you are without being at the track with you beyond thinking the left side weight is just a bit high. Move weight left to right to get closer to 61% left. Put the weight moved to right near front of seat so you're moving the weight off left rear and on to right front. Will help with what you described in not feeling like the kart wants to turn at corner entry. Otherwise, I would be looking for areas that the chassis is bound up and not letting it flex/transfer weight correctly. Make sure the seat isn't bound the way it's mounted and check the floor pan bolts to make sure they aren't tight and binding the chasses. And, finally, check nerf bars and bumpers to make sure they are free to move and loose as well as the body.
 
Landenmosr42 said:
So this post was based off of something I noticed racing my charger prodigy (standard) that I recently got and I ran it one weekend so far and I could provide more information but this is what I have in my notes on that kart. I run a 375 adult clone on maxxis

Left- (61.7)
Front- (45.2)
Cross- (67.5)

Stagger
Front- 1 1/2
Rear- 1 1/4

Caster
Left 7
Right 9

Camber
Left +.25
Right -2.75

seat is 9 in from the Axle and the bottom is about on the floor pan

Rear hubs are 4 1/4 Left and 4 1/2 (face of the hub to the cassette hanger)
Front one spacer on the inside of the LF and 2 on the inside of the RF
Click to expand...
Little less left, Little more nose, before going back on scales confirm rear hub spacing is RR close 1/4" clearance from tire rubbing frame, LR inside edge of wheel to frame 3/4 "
I'd tweak caster right to at least 10
 
Sometimes it’s not the setup and can be your line on the track. If you’re driving it in too hard and not backing your corner up then you will get the symptoms you explain. 11/4 rear stagger sounds like a lot unless you’re on a tight hairpin track.
 
you have too much left . kart probably doesn't want to get off the left rear. you may need to blip the throttle near corner entry to get the kart to transfer some weight
 
J'-remy said:
you have too much left . kart probably doesn't want to get off the left rear. you may need to blip the throttle near corner entry to get the kart to transfer some weight
Click to expand...
Plus remember 2 things with left being real high that creates very sensitive to rear stagger, Plus you may be able to time trial pretty good because you can use the whole track and no one on your tail, however on starts its tough because if you get contact from the rear at all it will just shove you right out.
 
racing promotor said:
First Remember CROSS is meant to be a Fine tune adjustment to get that last 1/10 out of any given set up combo.
Stagger : More Stagger ( Not added air to get what your looking for, actual stagger ) will decrease the rate of weight transfer from the left side of the chassis to the right side during cornering .
Rear Stagger : Correct rear stagger allows the kart to " track " properly, a kart that is " tracking " properly the outside tires of the kart traveling a distance that does not over run or under run the inside tires while cornering. Excessive rear stagger can cause a kart to turn itself while going down a straightaway, or make the kart extremely loose in the corners, Excessive rear stagger is usually very visible at the RR because it will cause " feathering " on the inside edge of the tire, and can be detected by confirming inside edge temp on the tire will be a lot hotter than middle and outside edge of the RR.
Increase RR stagger when the kart is tight or pushes when entering the corners.
Decrease RR stagger when the kart is loose throughout the entire corner.

Front Stagger : Front stagger does NOT effect tracking because the wheels are not connected by an axle, and spin independent of each other.
RF stagger is often added or removed to increase or decrease cross percentage, Adding will increase cross, decreasing will lower cross.
Increasing RF stagger in effect adds more negative RF camber and Positive LF camber, as well as adding cross.

If you give FULL DETAILS we could help you better.
Based on your other post your on a Minecon correct ? Is the RF spacer block in or out ? Rear Hub spacing RR and LR from inside edge of wheel ( rim ) to cassette hanger ? Front hub spacing in close ? or spacers behind spindle shaft ? Caster setting ? Camber settings ? what class and weight ?
Left % ?, Nose %, Cross % ? Bottom of seat how far up into frame rails ? top back of seat how far off top of axle ? Which Tires ?
Click to expand...
Ive seen you and others say Cross is for fine tuning. How small of % is a fine tune adjustment? Just curious because i see that comment on here alot.
 
racinnut15xm said:
Ive seen you and others say Cross is for fine tuning. How small of % is a fine tune adjustment? Just curious because i see that comment on here alot.
Click to expand...
We always decide base line set up high cross or low then get cross number to where we want it, once there leave cross alone don't touch it , if adjustments are needed do elsewhere once it's really close to your liking your running up front tweak cross just to confirm your not leaving that final half tenth on the table tweak cross, we never move only 1 washer always 2 at a time, and never change more than 4 % with that particular set up, also note with cross there is most always a 2 % dead zone where change within that zone shows no results.
What that reminder means most is you take kart out first run and it's plowing like a dump truck on entry and you know tires are close, cross adjustment is not what you change .
 
racing promotor said:
We always decide base line set up high cross or low then get cross number to where we want it, once there leave cross alone don't touch it , if adjustments are needed do elsewhere once it's really close to your liking your running up front tweak cross just to confirm your not leaving that final half tenth on the table tweak cross, we never move only 1 washer always 2 at a time, and never change more than 4 % with that particular set up, also note with cross there is most always a 2 % dead zone where change within that zone shows no results.
What that reminder means most is you take kart out first run and it's plowing like a dump truck on entry and you know tires are close, cross adjustment is not what you change .
Click to expand...
So based on this 2 washers is less than 4%. we don't race karts anymore and I rarely change cross just trying to understand the reasoning and when/why's. I sure feel like kart guys are much more in tune with setup stuff than a lot of other classes.
 
raising cross moves traction from the front to the rear reducing cross moves traction from the rear to the front. this is how most race cars use cross to fine tune a chassis. in karting some use cross and a lot of it to get the kart up on the RF and LR so the kart can reduce the effects of rear stagger scrubbing speed in the straights. by keeping the RR off the track or barely skimming it. 99.3% of Karters think getting high cross numbers is the be all end all trick without really knowing why or even all the ways of achieving it. most of the time its a monkey see monkey do adjustment
 
racing promotor said:
First Remember CROSS is meant to be a Fine tune adjustment to get that last 1/10 out of any given set up combo.
Stagger : More Stagger ( Not added air to get what your looking for, actual stagger ) will decrease the rate of weight transfer from the left side of the chassis to the right side during cornering .
Rear Stagger : Correct rear stagger allows the kart to " track " properly, a kart that is " tracking " properly the outside tires of the kart traveling a distance that does not over run or under run the inside tires while cornering. Excessive rear stagger can cause a kart to turn itself while going down a straightaway, or make the kart extremely loose in the corners, Excessive rear stagger is usually very visible at the RR because it will cause " feathering " on the inside edge of the tire, and can be detected by confirming inside edge temp on the tire will be a lot hotter than middle and outside edge of the RR.
Increase RR stagger when the kart is tight or pushes when entering the corners.
Decrease RR stagger when the kart is loose throughout the entire corner.

Front Stagger : Front stagger does NOT effect tracking because the wheels are not connected by an axle, and spin independent of each other.
RF stagger is often added or removed to increase or decrease cross percentage, Adding will increase cross, decreasing will lower cross.
Increasing RF stagger in effect adds more negative RF camber and Positive LF camber, as well as adding cross.

If you give FULL DETAILS we could help you better.
Based on your other post your on a Minecon correct ? Is the RF spacer block in or out ? Rear Hub spacing RR and LR from inside edge of wheel ( rim ) to cassette hanger ? Front hub spacing in close ? or spacers behind spindle shaft ? Caster setting ? Camber settings ? what class and weight ?
Left % ?, Nose %, Cross % ? Bottom of seat how far up into frame rails ? top back of seat how far off top of axle ? Which Tires ?
Click to expand...
Will a kart with correct stagger go straight down the straightaway with the correct amount of stagger?
 
bullerman said:
Will a kart with correct stagger go straight down the straightaway with the correct amount of stagger?
Click to expand...
"Correct" stagger would be based off of the radius of the turns. A hairpin or sharp turn track with long straightaways will require more stagger for the turns so more "binding" would occur on the straightaways. The oposite could be said for long radius turns.
 
bullerman said:
Will a kart with correct stagger go straight down the straightaway with the correct amount of stagger?
Click to expand...
Caster split is what will make the kart want to turn left, rear stagger affects this also. Perfect stagger (if there ever really is since both ends of track usually arent symmetrical) will not stop the kart from wanting to turn left.
 
We have a short track with what i call hair pin turns.
Track is flat also. It is symmetrical. Has a 44' radius on both ends.
My kart does turn left. It seems like the Kinetics like a lot of stagger. Seems almost the same front and rear.
 
racing promotor said:
We always decide base line set up high cross or low then get cross number to where we want it, once there leave cross alone don't touch it , if adjustments are needed do elsewhere once it's really close to your liking your running up front tweak cross just to confirm your not leaving that final half tenth on the table tweak cross.
Click to expand...

To add to this thought, keep in mind, on a high cross setup, more cross can allow more roll speed on the straights. Providing, of course, the chassis is capable of producing enough transfer to the RR to make use of the stagger for corner speed.

Being out of the range to get proper weight to the RR will lose more corner speed than it will be able to overcome with the added roll speed on the straights.
 
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