rebsfan4
Member
True.
Different valve covers????
- Thread starter Graham1728
- Start date
True.
I completely agree with you, my problem is with the other guys here and the "techman" who are saying my engine will be tossed in tech just for having 5 bolts in the valvecover pretty much. That is bull$hit
If any other tech man besides yourself believes that it is not legal to use, they should be able to speak up in this thread for themselfs, on the topic at hand here. Im with RebFan, the 5 bolt greyhound head is considered an OEM casting and a box stock part just as much as a jt 109 or any other box stock head. Nowhere in the rules does it say that all parts are subject to comparison to "box stock project" parts, or any other brand of clone engine. Box stock project is JSims's own variation of the 196 clone engine, just like ducar, dupor, and any other brand out there. I would like to see some imput on this topic from the AKRA rulemakers or other CERTIFIED techmen also, not just one techmans interpretation of the rules. I have never heard any tech man say that the parts must be compared to box stock project engine parts when in question, in fact at the last race i watched tech at, a yellow ducar or dupor engine was present, i am not sure on the brand BUT i do know it was NOT a box stock project engine, and Randall Lyles was the techman at this race. He is a well respected certified techman, if i recall.
I will continue to assume it legal until i see responses from more than one techman, and certified ones at that. It is OEM box stock part. If the valves are not sunk in the head, and the specs are in line with the rules, there is no reason for it not to be.
jsstump#70
Member
If Zach or Bryan are teching, yes its legal. If they are not, its anybodies guess. See how simple that is? Good luck!
mikeincoppell
New member
I have to ask, wasn't the original clone motor the blue Greyhound from Harbor Freight? If I'm correct then it must have been legal at one point so you would have to be able to point to a rule that says it now isn't legal. I'm thinking an example of this would be the stock flywheel.
http://www.racekarts.com/images/stories/gcki_forms/CHONDA_Yellow_Motor_Notice.pdf
http://www.racekarts.com/images/stories/gcki_forms/CHONDA_Yellow_Motor_Notice.pdf
rebsfan4
Member
You are correct. I was a late bloomer to the clones. Im still a FH guy at heart. I often times forget the 5th bolt was an addition to avoid infringement rights with Honda.
DynoDon
Moderator
The 5 bolt valve cover head is legal as long as it meets the specs that are in print. Back in the early days of the rules, there was a print ( statement ) that said " any 6.5 engine". that was put in there for the blue H.F. to be allowed in competition. It was also the engine that forced several rule changes and the sinking of the valves was one of those changes. Then the " any 6.5 engine " was removed due to the Honda. Because the blue was previously allowed, it is still allowed and if you have a head on the engine that falls within the perimeters of the rules, it is legal. You may also used the blue head on any legal 6.5 engine. I could go on and tell you several stories about the evolution of this engine but for now I need to go test some fuel!!!! lol
youngengines
Member
I believe the first blue engines were 4 bolt, then the 5 bolt came out. (I have a friend with some of the original blue engines that are 4 bolt).
rebsfan4
Member
Correct.
According to DynoDon, you are the only tech man who would be calling it illegal, from reading this thread. This is just a perfect example that not everyone interprets the rules the same way, even techmen. One of the leading members of the AKRA rules committee just posted it is legal, i believe that says enough. End of discussion.
I personally would like to say thank you for taking the time to get into this discussion and making it clear for everyone to see. It is common sense, but not everyone has it, and not everyone interprets the rules the same way as the next guy will. Thanks again DynoDon. (Try to avoid the fumes of the fuel, so people cant try to argue that you were intoxicated by the fumes when that post was made, LOL)
Have had the blue five bolt heads on a super flow and a Simmons carburetor comparator and like the other clones some flow better than others but..... overall they seem to flow very well. They seem to be able to take heat very well without spitting out valve seats. Flow is really good with new three angle valve rule.
All racers should go to a big time race like possum kingdom just to see the stuff being run. This applies both to engines and karts. Very interesting and time well spent. Will make you faster.
All racers should go to a big time race like possum kingdom just to see the stuff being run. This applies both to engines and karts. Very interesting and time well spent. Will make you faster.
mikeincoppell
New member
Am I the only one thinking that trying to write rules and control something that starts out halfway around the world with infinite and ever-growing variables is an exercise in futility?
And here's another one I can't figure out. I always heard and read that clones were preferred over Briggs motors because of cost, which I suppose was originally true. Well, now that professionally built clone motors are going for $700-900, and we all know you can't keep up without one, and both the Animal and LO206 are less than $550 brand new what's the reasoning to sticking with clone motors now?
Sorry guys, maybe these are topics that just shouldn't be thought about too much
And here's another one I can't figure out. I always heard and read that clones were preferred over Briggs motors because of cost, which I suppose was originally true. Well, now that professionally built clone motors are going for $700-900, and we all know you can't keep up without one, and both the Animal and LO206 are less than $550 brand new what's the reasoning to sticking with clone motors now?
Sorry guys, maybe these are topics that just shouldn't be thought about too much
Am I the only one thinking that trying to write rules and control something that starts out halfway around the world with infinite and ever-growing variables is an exercise in futility?
And here's another one I can't figure out. I always heard and read that clones were preferred over Briggs motors because of cost, which I suppose was originally true. Well, now that professionally built clone motors are going for $700-900, and we all know you can't keep up without one, and both the Animal and LO206 are less than $550 brand new what's the reasoning to sticking with clone motors now?
Sorry guys, maybe these are topics that just shouldn't be thought about too much
A STOCK briggs motor is cheaper than a BUILT clone, yes, but stock for stock comparision, the clone is several hundred dollars cheaper. If your gonna compare them price wise, compare them the same. A built animal, done by a professional builder, is up to $1400 some places, while clones max out around $1000, and i have no idea what the heck any builder can do to a clone to make their $1000 clone any better than Dover or any other professional builders $600-700 clones. There is only so much you can do to an AKRA legal engine before you basically hit a wall on the power you can get out of them with the specs we have to go by, that includes blueprinting them. Either way, clones, animals, 206 and predators are ALL cheaper than the $1600-1800 flatheads people were running years ago, and still paying those prices for these days. $1800 for an engine that starts out less than $400 new is ridiculous.
You basically compared a built clones price to a stock animals price, as if that was a fair comparision. Comparisions should be made with both engines in stock form, then both in built form, and the clone is still the cheapest both ways. You wouldnt take a stock animal to a race where others were running them built on methanol would you? lol
mikeincoppell
New member
I did exactly that, because everyone knows a stock clone isn't competitive and they don't exist. They are extinct. If you believe everything you read on this forum 0.001 HP is the difference between winning and running mid pack. So people spends $$$ searching for that 0.001 HP advantage, and will until clone motors go the way of dodo birds and flatheads. Which I predict will be in less than 5 years.
From the Briggs website: "Each Animal racing engine by Briggs & Stratton is hand-built by master small engine technicians and tested in our skunk-works in Milwaukee, Wisconsin." And for the LO206 it says "Hand-built in Milwaukee, WI. using tooling and dies specifically for racing for unparalleled repeatability. Factory sealed short-block with ground cam and controlled piston pop-up (reducing compression variance) Simplified IKF/WKA rule set designed to maintain a stock configuration right down to the factory shipped carburetor jets." So it appears these engines are specifically designed and manufactured for racing by Briggs & Stratton and held to exacting standards. I don't think there is anything in the previous sentence that applies to a clone motor in any form.
At our track there are quite a few BSP clone karts and on any given race day at least one blows up. There are also a few karts with Animals and LO206 motors, stock not "built". These karts run with the Yamaha karts as they are too fast for the clones. I've also never seen one blow up.
So my point is a clone racing motor is a utility motor of unknown origin, parts, and quality that must be "built" to be converted and used for racing purposes. And no matter how you try and control it allowing it to be opened up and modified inevitably escalates the costs until it reaches the breaking point. Whether it's karts or Indycars trying to build power with cubic dollars is not sustainable with possibly F1 being the lone exception. From my armchair on the clone sidelines I just cannot help but wonder why if there are purpose built 4-stroke motors with comparable or even more power than a built clone motor for less than $550 why keep fooling with clone motors when there is no longer a cost advantage. I think it is the perception that clone motors are cheaper when in fact they probably aren't.
Not,so,sure,about that...
I can build my S/A motor from a $99.00 clone, throw $400 dollars at it, have a good 15-17hp motor, reliable, race ready.
And yes...THAT IS IN CANADIAN DOLLARS... So I am sure you can do it cheaper in the US...
Where as to get a Animal is $650 for a stock motor L206. And any extras for the animals are twice as much!
I can build my S/A motor from a $99.00 clone, throw $400 dollars at it, have a good 15-17hp motor, reliable, race ready.
And yes...THAT IS IN CANADIAN DOLLARS... So I am sure you can do it cheaper in the US...
Where as to get a Animal is $650 for a stock motor L206. And any extras for the animals are twice as much!
razorcalif08
New member
A good part of the reason the Briggs got more expensive, and more rules, was because they changed from the factory. Anyone remember the .005 piston in the hole rule, pre dual bearing motors, the no porting rule, stock cams only, (that's when twisting started) on and on. Now we have numerous clone motors, even special interest/spec'd motors ordered from here. With every rule comes something else to check to make sure it's legal. Now a motor and aftermarket parts can run 4-$500, depending on where your running, and then blueprinting. Don't get me started on the claim rule.