Can one of the rule makers actually clarify why it is illegal to sink the valves? I did not say that valves sitting flush with the floor was considered sunken valves, that would just be considered flush with the floor of the chamber to me. Sunken valves to me, is when a valve sits below the floor of the chamber.
Different valve covers????
- Thread starter Graham1728
- Start date
Honestly iv never heard of a ratchet hub, can you explain what this is, or a picture? Sounds interesting
NCStratos288
Member
Hush don't give the cobs any ideas...
Your previous question to me was quite frankly how could it not flow better. Your responses above seem to indicate there would be better flow with sunken valves, and how could it not flow better when the valve sits flush? My understanding of these posts would be you have flowed them, they do flow better, and I should know they flow better when the valve sits flush with the floor. If you have flowed them and they do flow better, you have answered the question.
So if I have a 208 head or Hemi head that the valve sizes are correct in then you feel it would be legal to run? I could change the seats and run stock size valves. There is a difference in blocks and side covers there fore a 5 bolt head never came on a 4 bolt style block. It is an incorrect interchange of parts. Same would go for using a 4 bolt head on a HF 5 bolt style block.
I thought we were talking about clones, not predators.
Do you carry around a list of parts that came with specific manufacturers, or even a specific manufacturer's series (since they do change suppliers every now and again)?
I would say any open chamber 4 bolt valve cover head would be legal on any yellow or red, blue or black gx200 copy block, but the new style HF blue 196cc motors with the 5 bolt valve cover are specfic..for that motor/block side cover combo. Just my interpretation. Not to offend.
No offense taken. You raise a point on where the line is drawn between which parts can/cannot be used. Of course, I'm on one side and you're on the other, but I take that as a good thing. No one wants more rules... well, most don't. However, there are some clarifications that need to be made. This touches on an issue that I've mentioned in a few posts, particularly on carbs, regarding only having two to choose from. There are blocks that can be had at Home Depot that are similar, if not identical, to some of the blocks being used. BUT, the come with 'no-name' carbs on them. My feeling is/has been the clone class is for 'budget' racing (I laugh whenever I use those two words together). Why not endorse, embrace, support the class for what it is - clones. All clone parts should be allowed/interchanged/swapped or whatever, as long as they fall within the rules. Lets face it, the clones are made from a hodgepodge of manufacturers. If there were additions to the rules, I would not be supporting more measurements. I would be in support of a LIST of allowable manufacturers/parts with specific stamped numbers (similar to what AKRA has done with flywheels). If a head, crank, rod, etc is a clone of the GX200, who cares if the head came on a Ducar, Greyhound, Dupor, red, green, or pink? Its a clone of the GX200.
Thank you for responding to my post earlier. I hope that I did not offend you either.
Thank you for responding to my post earlier. I hope that I did not offend you either.
I agree with this post. A clone is a clone, no matter how many bolts the valve cover uses, as long as it meets the specs in the rules. Basically, you guys are saying it is illegal to use a 5 bolt greyhound head on a BSP motor, because the greyhound head would give an advantage, right? The why in the predator classes, are the Hemi predators allowed to run in the same class as the older or other style predators, when the hemi is obviously nothing like the other predators, has an obvious performance advantage over the rest, AND even comes with a basically performance piston in it rather than a dish piston like the others. Anyone who will say a flat top piston of any type is not a performance advantage must not know anything about engine building, or what one of the first things builders add to a open or stock appearing motor is gonna be most of the time. This makes no sense to me at all. Not all 196 clone carbs are the same specs, neither are the heads, or even the cranks, otherwise we wouldnt be blueprinting these engines in the first place and handpicking the parts for max performance and tolerances. If it is a clone class, and there are specs on these parts, then any clone part which meets that spec should be called legal. People talk about this class being for budget racers right? So if a budget racer has a greyhound motor in his garage that happens to have a hole in the block, but has a good head, and one day at the track while running his BSP yellow motor, he drops a valve or something else goes wrong and ruins his head, that racer is then forced to go out and buy a new motor or new head for his yellow motor, rather than using the perfectly good greyhound head he has at home, which happens to meet all specs required by his rules? To me, that defeats the purpose of budget racing right there, alot of people cant afford to go out and buy a new head or block everytime something goes wrong with the one they have, and would like to use parts they already have laying around. I agree if the greyhound head has valves sunk in the head, then no he shouldnt be allowed to use it because the rules specifically say that you cant sink the valves, but if the head meets all the same specs as the stock head that came on that engine, other than having one extra bolt holding the valve cover on, then there should be no reason not to allow it, because it is in fact an OEM clone part, unless it has been modified. Heck 90% of the heads, blocks, rods or any other parts of any given motor leaving a builders shop have been modified in one way or another, whether it can be proved or not, yet they still meet specs and they are still legal.
Im not saying we need anymore changes to the rules, im just saying that if this class is supposed to be based on the budget racers, or supposed to be for budget racers, then give those racers some leniency in the tech room when it comes to what parts they choose to use on which engines, as long as they meet the specs and are legal at the end of the day. Sorry for the rant, but this type of thing gets me heated.
It has been previously stated that the 5 bolt head is believed to flow better. The bare stock clone head is a $20 replacement part, when an engine has a catastrophic failure a head $20 cylinder head is not out of the question. The intermixing of parts and loosening of the written rules is what will kill this engine for sure. I can tell you what the dreaded alternative is for most of you is going to be.
When the mongrel engines dominate every racer will run to the builder and pay to have selected parts assembled. Next year the combination will be different the builder/assembler will be busy again. Or at this time the term Clone needs to be removed from this engine, as the only part of the definition that can be applied to a non organic material is, "identical to the unit or individual from which it was derived".
When the mongrel engines dominate every racer will run to the builder and pay to have selected parts assembled. Next year the combination will be different the builder/assembler will be busy again. Or at this time the term Clone needs to be removed from this engine, as the only part of the definition that can be applied to a non organic material is, "identical to the unit or individual from which it was derived".
jsstump#70
Member
It also says "All parts must be BoxStock factory production parts unless otherwise specified." The 5 bolt head is not specifically specified. It also says "All parts will be subject to a comparison to a known Box Stock part." Box Stock Project is the "stock" engine used for comparison. They never used a 5 bolt. When compared, the 5 bolt is easily identified as different to the 4 bolt. Using the "OEM" term as it applies to the "clone" engine will be a difficult task. The original equipment manufacturer has long been lost in the shuffle. Again, I suspect BSP engine is considered the source of "OEM" parts as it is considered here. Unless it says you can, you cant. That is term used to justify tech decisions all the time. At least here on Bobs it is. In this case, clearly it does not specifially say the 5 bolt can be used.
rebsfan4
Member
"Box Stock" and Bock Stock Project are not literally one in the same.
Box Stock Project is an engine package offered by Jimmy Sims as you well know. It's just the name he chose for his enigine program. While the term may be used in a descriptive nature when refering to clones in general, it's still just that....a term.
"Box Stock" is a generic term used by rule makers and the karting world in general to identify parts as they relate to the release and use of parts, components and/or packages by the public.
The 5 bolt patterned valve cover head was/is the ORIGINAL factory pruduced part for the clone engine that has evolved today. if not for a conflict with Honda it could very well still be in production. The fact that it is scarce due to limited production or it not being used on the Box Stock Project Engine does nothing to change the fact that it is an OEM casting. One of many. And one that is legal (Provided all areas covered under tech will pass).
This is just another area where people choose to cloud the simplicity of the rules with the complexity of their own interpretations. For instance....the rule book states "compared to known Box Stock parts" NOT "compared to known Box Stock Project" parts. There is a BIG difference there.
That is the exact reason I am NOT a tech man anymore..too many variations and too many people that do NOT actually know what they are looking at when interpreting the rules. Also i could not all run all of these "legal" "interchangeable" parts on my motors because I was a tech man and did not want questioning of my "unbiased" position.. NOW I feel comfortable running whatever I decided and we will see if the tech man thinks it's legal or not..I been tossed a couple of times..and I graciously accept the tech mans decision. Cost me $600.00 win at one race. I am just more careful the next time when picking or "blueprinting" my parts.
jsstump#70
Member
I am not "choosing" to make this complicated with "my" interpretations. Of the 5 (thats five) AKRA "tech" personell that have responded to the question of "Is the 5 bolt head legal by the current rules?" question. Two by email, one by PM, one by phone, and now your response. There have been two "no it is not legal", two "I dont know" and now your one "it is legal". It apperars the "cloudiness" is with actual AKRA tech men. Im not the only one who is wondering about this. Ive had two prominant engine builders state they also read the rules as the 5 bolt head being illegal. Even if you ask before the race "if its legal", clearly next week a different tech man may call it different. "Simplicity" seems to be a subjective term.
There would not have been a conflict with Honda in regard to the 5 bolt pattern. Actually that would have been what would have simplified it for many manufacturers, one of the things that would have seperated it from a Honda. Using the term OEM in regard to these engines is really stretching it.
youngengines
Member
So....is the 5 bolt valve cover head legal????????????????????????????????????????
rebsfan4
Member
That seems to hold consistently true on here with a select few for sure.
I wouldn't toss ya on it. So load up and come on down here and race with us rednecks!!
