front stagger

My personal feelings on stagger are that everyone over thinks it. Really if you have the numbers in the kart you want for that given track, what is a 1/8 or a 1/4 going to do at the track. If you change tires to obtain you stagger that you feel may help you, are the change stagger or because you have different tires with different grip even though the same prep. If you heat the same set to shrink or enlarge them, is the changes in stagger what you feel changed the handling or is it because the hour it took to change your stagger and the track has now changed. you will never know at the track most likely on that given day. I do think different tracks produce different results with the overall numbers in your kart and set up that you come to the track with, but the average person in karting is wasting his time to try and change it at the track or that given day with the numbers he came with. Tires and prep on that day at the track will either increase speed with proper selection or decrease speed with improper tire selection.. while at the track would it not be wiser to reduce left side by a few, or add a tad of nose, change tire pressure, the things you can do in less then a minute and go right back out and try it before the tracks changes, and on the same tires. or even just change ties, Then you have the whole day trying things and when the sun goes down and the track is slower, you still most likely will be on different tires with the prep you feel will work, with more grip. So save your time, and re scale with different numbers next time you go to that track. Most likely camber or castor will help more then anything with the set up you came with besides tires.

Changing stagger, if needed, at the track is not time consuming. You simply replace one tire with a tire of a different size. OR you simply do it with air. Keep in mind, the question didn't pertain to changing stagger at the track. It was simply about the affects of a change.

Changing stagger, changes several things. It may not be much, but there is change. It changes camber, cross, ride height, location of roll centers and a few other things. Here's the part that can be confusing to some......if a change in stagger makes the kart work better, then it was really nothing more than a cumulative total of all the things affected by the change itself working together better that made a difference.

Playing with stagger on the scales in a static position can give you pretty good insight as to what one can expect when things go into dynamic mode on the track.

People dont make it confusing. It just really is confusing when you take into consideration everything affected by it. That's why I keep my simply logic that I apply. Right or wrong.....it always works for me.
 
might throw that thought at jamie knopf
I don't really worry much about front stagger. Almost everything that can be done with front stagger can be replicated with a different adjustment far easier than having lots of tires with different circumferences. Because of this and because of the already nearly insurmountable task of getting even one or two unique sets of tires working well, much less having to do so with lots of different size tires, I don't see much of anyone working with front stagger.

Todd
www.dynamicsofspeed.com
 
What is this spreadsheet that you guys are talking about?
Is your question; what is a spreadsheet? Or; what spreadsheet are you talking about?
Microsoft Excel is a spreadsheet program. Wikipedia should have a definition.
Nine Sheets is a collection of spreadsheet “pages” written, (constructed) in Excel. Each page does a different task. For instance; an interactive gear ratio chart or a way to find the weights for each tire to arrive at different weight percentages, as in Front, left and cross. For instance; enter the percentages you want, with the kart and driver total weight and the spreadsheet will tell you what each corner weight should be. Or, put in the corner weights you have and the spreadsheet will tell you what total weight and percentages you have.

Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
 
IMO I think many discount the affect of front stagger on caster. Going from say 1.25" to 1.75" of front stagger acts as a reduction in caster. You also have to look at the natural camber introduced into the chassis. More important and something I think people do not even consider is chassis stiffness. A very flexible chassis will require less front stagger. This is due to the flexibility of the chassis wanting to “soaked-up” some of the jacking effect. It will help you to unload the left rear better. For a very stiff chassis less jacking effect will be “soaked-up” in the chassis. I also think you need to consider what it does to the front roll center. More front stagger will make it more negative.

Mercer mentioned a lot of great things that would tie into what I have mentioned, Todd as well.

Generally speaking if you have too much front stagger in the kart it will push coming off. But to counter that statement, I have won a race before with a flat LF tire!

In the end what I really care about is how the front tires are presented to the track through the turn, how load is being distributed across the contact patch, and the rate of steered camber gain.

I also rarely have ever run the factory spindles. I tend to set the chassis up where I wanted it, then looked at where the washers are and ordered drop spindles to center the spindles back up. That way I have a lot of adjustability.

Anyway, its cold outside and I'm a little bored. Thought I'd peruse the forum and see what was going on.

Mike McCarty
Chassis Manual (Only $17.95)
www.kartcalc.com
 
Chassis flex will and does automatically increase camber as RF load increases. Increasing stagger by putting on a smaller LF tire will decrease the amount of change because of increased load on the RF.

It's really like anything else. It's hey your pushing or your something else. First you have to know what it is your doing out there that's a problem. If your pushing yada yada yada ... you either have to make it grip more up front, get more turn out of the back or at least reduce in the back what ever it is that's fighting with the fronts, trying to go straight when you want to turn. Changing how the RF is presented to the track by any means, will effect how the back end does what it does.

Let's say your pushing, how do you know if your push is a RF tire presentation problem? Your going to feel the RF or take temp readings. If the whole tire feels the same across it, then sure maybe throw some front stagger at it by putting a smaller LF on. But then sure your going to put some angle to the RF, but at the same time your also going to reduce some of the effort going to the RF to make it work. Was your problem the RF wasn't working to begin with lack of effort to it and zip for chassis flex, then you stagger increase just put you farther out to lunch. But even that's iffy because ... Stuff is complicated and some how some way you have to develop a picture of the whole kart in 3d in your head or gain a feel if you like for the whole thing. Until stuff just all blends together to form your own personal understanding, your throwing junk to the wind trying to know what putting more stagger on up front fixes. It may fix what you want it to fix today, but tomorrow it might not. It's the whole picture that matters. I'm thinking about and looking at my picture while writing this. That's all I can do because all I have to look at is my picture. The best I can do and anyone else can do is to guess about your picture. Mike, Todd, JWD and some others on here have a pretty darn clear picture. All the rest of us can do is to hope someday our picture will be just as clear.

shakenbake5, Your origional question asked about how changing stagger might effect transfer speed and you said you heard about more slowing transfer. Well if you just think about the smaller tire lowering down the left front corner by making the LF spindle drop down, then just alter your picture in you head. When you ask that I actually see a kart and I see the LF corner drop down. To figure out what might or will happen I actually can make the picture drop down a whole lot to exaggerate stuff. I see this imaginary weight or blob at the LF wanting to go more straight out then it did before the change. I then think about how it use to sort of push down on the RF corner of the chassis and flex it a little... and how now since the change it can't do that as much. Then I start seeing how it changed camber from what it use to be because the LF dropped down. If you drop down the left side it will angle up the outside of the RF tire a little. If it was pretty even heated across it, then maybe it will work a little more to the inside. But then again since that Blob of weight can't flex the chassis as much then maybe when out on the track it really didn't make much change at all. That's where Mikes coming from when he starts about a flexible chassis soaking up adjustment and needing less stagger.

Back to the fast or slow acting thing or thought. I guess I not only see a picture in my mind of the chassis working, I also see forces acting on it. The forces I see in my mind acting on the chassis are a sort of visible wind I can actually see put effort to the chassis. You say more stagger by putting on a smaller LF and I see a visible sort of wing blowing from left to right across the front slightly change direction, from sort of downward to more outward. My mind knows that if it's blowing more outward then there's not as much effort as there was pushing the tire into the track, >through the physical chassis. So there's less flex and maybe more angle of the tire to the track. ya know, while writing that I realized I also see the track and I automatically put a banking the tire is being applied to. ... are you starting to see it a little ? Actually I'm not afraid to try to explain my picture of it on here. ya know why? I'm positive others have the same or similar picture there looking at. The problem is its very tough to describe a picture. ... :) are you startng to see it a little ? I hope this helps you to see how and why questions are answered on here by, it all depends... answers like ... sometimes front stagger or cross will free it up a little and other times it will tighten it up a little, it all just depends.

or maybe because this is all IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ... :)

and again... everything is black and white, cut and dry, depending on different stuff
 
In reality, should we consider front stagger to be one of the last adjustments we worry about? Arent there a billion other things we should look at and test before we deviate from the "standard" 1.5" of front stagger? Just seems like there are more effective changes that can be made before we worry about it. Maybe it isnt?
 
Paulkish....I've seen several good points but one you mentioned made something click. This is off subject from the front stagger...but I can see lowering the lf Could speed transfer to the rf from lf but slow transfer from lr. Is that right? And raising the lf will cause less transfer from the lf
 
I stagger because I have lower lumbar problems along with an artificial knee and old age, but I don't try to figure out al this technical stuff anymore, because some yrs. back a real good friend that spent some time in the infield at FAS races told me to add 2 lbs. of air to my L/F tire to aid the handling, it did, but now I'm very blessed to have a fantastic driver who takes care of all that stuff, He's real good on the carb. needles too.
 
That's side stagger Jack!!!

We talked about this subject on the old site. The only form of racing that requires or is nessasary to have front stagger is when the front tires are connected together by a common braking system or connected by a solid axle like some front wheel drive classes.

Anything else that is achieved by a front stagger change can be achieved by countless other adjustments on the kart.

It is said in an earlier post that when you change front stagger you change cross, chassis rake, roll centers, ride heights, cambers, ect. If you are changing all those things by just changing you stagger than you have a lot to learn about chassis setup and front stagger should be the last thing on your mind. If you did a stagger change and you don't reset EVERYTHING listed above back to where it was before the change than you changed a multitude of things more than just front stagger and you will have know idea which one of the changes you did that effected the chassis. But it probabily wasn't the stagger.
 
I do most of my adjustments with tire pressure. A good friend showed me that trick. Jacks driver showed me that one day at the track and I have always done it since then. Front stagger and rear stagger were explained to me by my dad. Think of a telephone pole lying on the ground. It has a big end and small end. When you role it it will naturally turn because it is tapered. Well that is what stagger does on a kart. Get it right and you hardly need to turn the steering wheel.

Frankie
 
Yah Frankie. The article basicily tells you that if you change front stagger it will change a multitude of things on the kart. It explains how to reset them back to where they were before you did the front stagger change. It explains if you set everything back to where it was before you did the front stagger change that the kart would handle the same exact way as it did before you did the front stagger change. So, a front stagger change "alone" will have on effect on the handling of the kart.

The article also explains that it can't tell you if more stagger will help a kart turn better. Or if less front stagger will help it turn better. It tells you that the dominate affect that a front stagger change has on camber, rake and cross is what will make it turn better. All of which can be achieved by a number of simple chassis adjustments explained in that article.

The artical also concludes with the explanation that the main reason in today's karting we run front stagger is to achieve the manufactures desired cross percentage. That is the same thingsnthat I discussed on the old forum.

With my front end geometry experience with ASA and ALMS, onthe old site, I had explained in great detail why basicily only cars with a common front braking system require front stagger to affect handling and driver comfort. Everything else can be achieved in the chassis. But that is a whole other topic.
 
Andrew if you are referring to my statement, I did state that IF an at the track change was made and it did work, it would be all things affected that would accumulate to make the difference. At home I would have always reset things. At the track I may not have. Some people do not always take their set up equipment with them to the track. That's why I said ALL things afffected.
 
Hay Bryan. How you been brother!!!!

My statements were just in general. I was just pointing out that front stagger alone will have no affect on how the chassis handles. You could achieve what you need the chassis to do with no stagger just as easy as you can with stagger. The article even mentions that a chassis may even need reverse stagger to make the kart turn.

Front stagger is not nessasary in LTO karting.

Like I mentioned on the old forum. I believe there would be more speed potential if the tire
manufactures would make RF's as small as the LF's and give us the option to run zero front stagger.

JMO. Carry on!!!
 
Is your question; what is a spreadsheet? Or; what spreadsheet are you talking about?
Microsoft Excel is a spreadsheet program. Wikipedia should have a definition.
Nine Sheets is a collection of spreadsheet “pages” written, (constructed) in Excel. Each page does a different task. For instance; an interactive gear ratio chart or a way to find the weights for each tire to arrive at different weight percentages, as in Front, left and cross. For instance; enter the percentages you want, with the kart and driver total weight and the spreadsheet will tell you what each corner weight should be. Or, put in the corner weights you have and the spreadsheet will tell you what total weight and percentages you have.

Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.

I know what a spreadsheet is..was curious in someone had the files saved or already had them set up for karting.
 
Hay Bryan. How you been brother!!!!

My statements were just in general. I was just pointing out that front stagger alone will have no affect on how the chassis handles. You could achieve what you need the chassis to do with no stagger just as easy as you can with stagger. The article even mentions that a chassis may even need reverse stagger to make the kart turn.

Front stagger is not nessasary in LTO karting.

Like I mentioned on the old forum. I believe there would be more speed potential if the tire
manufactures would make RF's as small as the LF's and give us the option to run zero front stagger.

JMO. Carry on!!!

Been doing good. Working my tail off as usual. You still kicking it in Sunny Florida?

Man I remember when it was the two small tires on the front. And we drove them like latemodels and sprint cars. Love those days!!!
 
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