Help with scaling

Patkohns

Member
Would anyone have an opinion if thees numbers look anywhere close for a rookie red plate on an old ultramax element?

We're at about 239 with driver being 45 pounds of that. 1 1/4 front stagger 1 1/8 in rear. LF .5 Camber, RF -2.75, 6psi on left 7 on rights

We were on

F 46.6 L 51.9 C 62.4
LF 43.4, LR 81, RF 68.5, RR 47.1

Have trouble keeping 6 year old in groove, had tendancy to enter corner way to shallow then exits high with wheel cranked and kart snaps loose. And after smacking the wall pretty good he has been more tentative and stabbing brake at corner exit. He said it felt like it wouldnt turn center off so last race we lowered the LF by 2 washers, and moved LR out a 1/4 inch, and got to here when scaled after the race

F 46.5, L 51.9 C 59.5,
LF 46.8, LR 78, RF 65, RR 50.6

He said it felt about the same though he was making a better arc through corners and I could hear that he was in throttle more.

I am as new to this as he is, just trying to find a baseline setup that he can comfortabling control to get experience staying on racing line around other karts. Watching it seems like some of the other kids barely have to turn the wheel where from center off he is about full lock, to me it seems like kart is on LR and the front end isn't really working.

Should we try moving more washers on LF/RF to reduce cross further? Like to around 52-53%? Any input appreciated.
 

racing promotor

Moderator
First rear stagger and air pressure is track dependent, and as long as he continues entering to shallow it will exit high regardless what numbers are, 46 % nose, 53.5 % left, 56.5 % cross, .5 LF camber, 2.6 RF neg camber, reset rear track width first RR 3/8 " from inside edge of wheel to frame, LR 7/8 ", DON"T make any adjustments other than tires and air UNTIL he's in the groove entering right, if you don't enter right you'll NEVER exit right, tell him if he has exit problem he should automatic think I didn't enter right and next corner entry focus on entering later up in the groove, set him down with a match box car, draw a track in the dirt show him what he's doing wrong and what happens on exit because of it, then show him if he enters right it will flow right thru on exit, he'll figure it out.
Good Luck !!
 

Patkohns

Member
You'll struggle with the element anyway.
More LS, tick lower cross
Could you expand on struggling with the element anyway? Reputation as finicky chassis?

I see people say its all tires, which just kills me to think about when just starting to see if kids even enjoy driving. Id say track is hard and slick most nights. they use calcium before every show and sweep dust off. I dont know the tire game yet just running maxxis take offs, i put 2 coats of tt blue on mon night another 2 coats tues then wipe between races. Kind of wish the beginner classes had a different tire rule to eliminate that variable for now
 

racing promotor

Moderator
Could you expand on struggling with the element anyway? Reputation as finicky chassis?

I see people say its all tires, which just kills me to think about when just starting to see if kids even enjoy driving. Id say track is hard and slick most nights. they use calcium before every show and sweep dust off. I dont know the tire game yet just running maxxis take offs, i put 2 coats of tt blue on mon night another 2 coats tues then wipe between races. Kind of wish the beginner classes had a different tire rule to eliminate that variable for now
If they use Calcium every show and they need to sweep dust, THEY DON"T KNOW HOW TO USE IT !! tell them to read the track prep forum.
 

XXX#40

2A supporter
Could you expand on struggling with the element anyway? Reputation as finicky chassis?

I see people say its all tires, which just kills me to think about when just starting to see if kids even enjoy driving. Id say track is hard and slick most nights. they use calcium before every show and sweep dust off. I dont know the tire game yet just running maxxis take offs, i put 2 coats of tt blue on mon night another 2 coats tues then wipe between races. Kind of wish the beginner classes had a different tire rule to eliminate that variable for now
Yes the element is worse than finicky
 

alvin l nunley

Premium User
From your description of his driving style, I get a picture that very familiar to me. I think it comes from listening to other kids talk about how you have to go as deep as you can into the corner. The end up going into deep end when they finally get slowed down enough to make a turn, it's a hard left, that really slowS you down.


How big is your track? You need to know the radius of the corner to get a real idea of the stagger you need.

I know very little about dirt oval set up, but I've been here on Bob's for many years and have heard a lot of stories and seen a lot of setups. You might look at the 2 illustrations I including and see if they help. The first one you see set up you posted and the 2nd one is just an idea that you might. Try
 

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Patkohns

Member
Moved lead, washers, and seat. Was able to get stagger to 11/4 front and 1 in rear. Got it to F 46.4, L 52.5, C 56.6 before race this weekend. Lf 51.2, rf 61.1, lr 74.4 rr 53. Looked much more comfortable driving, and said the kart turned much easier. Think that got him off the brake pedal, and line was more consistent. Now working on staying in throttle more.

Threw it back on scales after race just to check. No adjustments at track but %s changed slightly. L 52.1 f 46.7 c 54.7.
 

alvin l nunley

Premium User
thought you might be interested in this. What's the class weight? I'm guessing it's a little light on rear bite.
 

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GClary

Member
Not sure where your racing , but around here in Oh , most set the front stagger at 1 1/2 and never change it , and adjust the rear accordingly . Air pressure is needing dropped down , unless he is getting good bite . Get him some bright colored gloves , or put some white tape on the wheel , so you can see what his hands are doing , it helps a bunch when you can see how busy their hands are . What are your caster and camber numbers set at now ? Main thing is , have fun and no pressure ! Good Luck
 

1fasttiller

Member
Drop air way down, get rear stagger to at least 1.5" and put a ton of bite in the tire. You need to instill confidence (Grip) in a new driver. Its critical to help them learn to be fast. If its pushing on exit stagger and softer RF tire should help. Set RF camber at no more than 2.5*

What kind of tire are you on?
 

Patkohns

Member
Didn't change anything chassis whise but this week had bad push center off and seemee to really be wearing inside edge of RF. From the fence it looked like the kart wouldn't rotate through center of corner, kid said it felt harder to turn and front end may have felt like sliding.

I know I need to try and grow the right side tires for more stagger. Will adjusting RF camber or the cross weight help any?
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
Track conditions likely changed .
post your current set up numbers .
A camber change may help save the inside of the tire , or it's just plain wore out .
 

racing promotor

Moderator
Didn't change anything chassis whise but this week had bad push center off and seemee to really be wearing inside edge of RF. From the fence it looked like the kart wouldn't rotate through center of corner, kid said it felt harder to turn and front end may have felt like sliding.

I know I need to try and grow the right side tires for more stagger. Will adjusting RF camber or the cross weight help any?
If your driver is still entering to quick, to low It's gonna push, plus If your rear stagger is low that only makes it worse.
 
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