Track Tac

LTO kart racing stagger question

I don't think it's true. Think of it this way; If You kept increasing the banking until the turn surface was vertical, how much stagger would you need?

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
 
I don't think he quite meant you would never turn, but the banking would hold you in the turn so that you don't need to turn as much. In that extreme example, you'd likely still need to turn just a bit to get into the turn. Let's say you came to this vertical turn track with 1" of rear stagger. You'd quickly realize that the kart would still be wanting to get loose or even just drift left throughout the turns (not sure, never ran 90 degree banking yet). Judging by the amount of banking, I'd decrease the rear stagger. At just above or exactly 0 rear stagger (my guess), you will maximize your speed in the turn while minimizing your loss of speed on the straightaways due to the rear axle fighting you from the increased stagger.

Of course, that's an impossibly extreme example. If I showed up to a track that had a little more banking than I had expected and my kart is turning a bit too well, I'd go down on rear stagger; to do the exact same thing on a much smaller scale: maximize speed through the turns while minimizing my kart's struggle to want to turn left down the straights. I didn't realize there was an argument for anything besides that.

-Andy
 
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If it was vertical you would be inside a giant drum, therefore you're not turning you're going straight.
So I would have to say more banking = less stager. but hey we run Sprint
 
the way that i'm running mine on a medium banked track is a little less than 7/8 of an inch...it gives me a little bit of a loose feel coming out of the turns but it's fast....i can't give you the math that others can. i can tell you tho that more stagger in the turns might mean that it turns easier, but then you have to almost fight the kart to keep from turning too far....i closed up the stagger and it seemed faster on exit...and that is where you make the best times....getting out of the corner and rocketing down the straights...

just my thoughts!
 
racing promotor said:
I'll tell ya why I don't, cause I'm there to Win the race.
I'll let Bryan and Brian, and Earl explain WHY.
Click to expand...

No point in explaining it. It will only lead to an disagreement or someone saying they are being attacked or someone saying prove my "theory" wrong.

If people whould think about how weight transfers on a flat track versus how weight transfers when banking is added, the answer is there.
 
rebsfan4 said:
If people whould think about how weight transfers on a flat track versus how weight transfers when banking is added, the answer is there.
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and that's a very good point, "if people would only think". If the track is flat or a track is banked, makes no difference, weight is TRANSFERRES, (a misnomer) exactly the same. A body in motion tends to stay in motion. The more banking, the faster the karts can go around the corner, applying more force in the direction of the outside of the turn. If a body is in motion, and you try to change its direction, the faster you try to change the direction, the more centrifugal force is applied to the tires. And something that hasn't been mentioned; the more force applied to the tires, it just seems to me they would want to have more air pressure. With 10 degree banking, you would be going faster than if there was no banking, meaning more load on the tires, and this I think would mean, higher air pressure in the tires. I can't recall ever hearing anybody talk about that.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
 
Could it be that you need more stagger because of all the weight that is being transferred to the right side tires will cause the kart to try and push up the track when there is greater banking? The only way to counter-act the additional weight transfer to the right side, would be to either add left side weight or increase stagger? I just know that the tracks that I have run that have more banking are generally faster and turns tend to be tighter also.
 
"The more banking, the faster the karts can go around the corner, applying more force in the direction of the outside of the turn."

Al, that is only true under the specific conditions, your now thinking about.

You are assuming a given line will be taken and be the fastest, through a turn. Your thinking road race and sprint thoughts which lead to the road course and sprint debate of; how do you approach the apex. In basic road race and sprint racing Al, the debate is about do you hit the apex and accelerate or do you alter how you approach the apex and accelerate sooner.

Yes Al I understand about graphing a turn and how the apex determines the radius and then your thoughts of banking fall right into place.

Al, what were trying to make you understand is when racing LTO, with two ends of a track, our line does not relate to the most efficiently thought about road race and sprint racing lines.

Al, the line we race around an oval is usually dictated by what is the most advantageous racing line, for the current goings on in the race. Stagger Al, is determined and dictated by what will give the racer the greatest>racing< advantage on the track.

What the fastest way around Al, is NOT determined by any calculation, it's determined by track conditions. Al, even if the track was an 89 degree oval, stagger would still be needed. It would be needed to create an advantage. Without an advantage Al, there is no need to race.

by the way Al, I do know what your thinking. ... :)


... :) Al, read below the line. You will not be able to comprehend how LTO's are used in a turn, unless you can apply what's below the line to road and sprint racing. Al, do you know who uses your apex and radius approach, LTO racing?
 
blh0728 said:
Could it be that you need more stagger because of all the weight that is being transferred to the right side tires will cause the kart to try and push up the track when there is greater banking?
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I have this idea that the right side tire is distorting making the stagger different. I haven't heard anybody talk about raising the tire pressures for a banked turn track. Just a theory because I've never raced a banked dirt track. I have raced a 3/8 mile paved, high banked oval, and I did raise the tire pressures quite a bit. I don't remember just exactly how much, but it was substantial compared to a Sprint track. The fact that I did so well on that track makes me think I must've been close. I won every race and every heat.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
 
alvin l nunley said:
and that's a very good point, "if people would only think". If the track is flat or a track is banked, makes no difference, weight is TRANSFERRES, (a misnomer) exactly the same. A body in motion tends to stay in motion. The more banking, the faster the karts can go around the corner, applying more force in the direction of the outside of the turn. If a body is in motion, and you try to change its direction, the faster you try to change the direction, the more centrifugal force is applied to the tires. And something that hasn't been mentioned; the more force applied to the tires, it just seems to me they would want to have more air pressure. With 10 degree banking, you would be going faster than if there was no banking, meaning more load on the tires, and this I think would mean, higher air pressure in the tires. I can't recall ever hearing anybody talk about that.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
Click to expand...

Actually weight doesn't transfer "exactly" the same. On a flat track without banking, weight transfers laterally. With the addition of the banking you can add in vertical transfer as well.

In oval kart racing we deal with centripetal forces. The only thing centrifugal dealing with karts are the clutches.
 
rebsfan4 said:
Actually weight doesn't transfer "exactly" the same. On a flat track without banking, weight transfers laterally. With the addition of the banking you can add in vertical transfer as well.

In oval kart racing we deal with centripetal forces. The only thing centrifugal dealing with karts are the clutches.
Click to expand...

You re-negged on ur post#11 Bryan!! How's things in 'Paradise'? :)
 
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