Track Tac

Rolling wheel measuring device at Amazon.

Al, the only one resistant is you. We could all push you to water and you wouldn't drink it and argue it's not the right color. Race tracks are not perfect as you think and assume they are. Most tracks both ends of the track are not exact. Your stagger theory is just that. A theory. Sometimes it's close. Other times it's way off. Sometimes you think your helping but most of the time your just talking to your keyboard.
 
The only thing you need for calculating stagger is turn radius.
Click to expand...



Just too many variables in my opinion to base stagger off of turn radius alone. It is a valuable piece of data to have, but knowing what to do with that data is just as important.
Consider if the apex isn't at the center of the turn radius? What if the driving line is not a "circle" or smooth arc? What about available grip in the tires, track, banking, length of straights, and so much more?
The Mychron GPS sure does help in finding the optimum driving line. The price had previously been just out of reach for many karters, but with the advent of the new Mychron5 with GPS, it is more affordable than ever.

Thanks,
Brian Carlson
 
Crazyboyracing7 said:
Al, the only one resistant is you. We could all push you to water and you wouldn't drink it and argue it's not the right color. Race tracks are not perfect as you think and assume they are. Most tracks both ends of the track are not exact. Your stagger theory is just that. A theory. Sometimes it's close. Other times it's way off. Sometimes you think your helping but most of the time your just talking to your keyboard.
Click to expand...
Do you know how inappropriate it is to talk about what's in another person's mind. Or what someone else would do in a given situation. And you must think me ignorant if you think I don't know that tracks are not always perfectly symmetrical.

As far as a theory goes, and it says it right in my spreadsheet, my estimates of the proper stagger are "theoretical". Basically, a good place to start. Spreadsheets can only take the information you give them and predict an outcome. The old adage, "garbage in, garbage out" is equally true with spreadsheets.

And unless you have a copy of my, "Nine Sheets" Excel spreadsheet, you can't say whether it's right or wrong. I have no record of you being an owner of Nine Sheets. Not under the name crazyboyracing. Unless you know the radius of the corners, you can't use the spreadsheet anyway. It requires some information in order to make the prediction.
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
Just too many variables in my opinion to base stagger off of turn radius alone. It is a valuable piece of data to have, but knowing what to do with that data is just as important.
Consider if the apex isn't at the center of the turn radius? What if the driving line is not a "circle" or smooth arc? What about available grip in the tires, track, banking, length of straights, and so much more?
The Mychron GPS sure does help in finding the optimum driving line. The price had previously been just out of reach for many karters, but with the advent of the new Mychron5 with GPS, it is more affordable than ever.

Thanks,
Brian Carlson
Click to expand...
I wouldn't know if the tires have anything to do with stagger, as far as compound and brand is concerned. All my spreadsheet needs to know is the radius of the turn and the width of the rear end, C-C. When you say track, do you mean tread widths? That's part of my calculations. Banking, that's in my calculations. (I have a spreadsheet that calculates changes in tread width depending on banking. Length of straights? That's where the tuning comes in. With a tight turn radius, (more stagger) and a long straight (less stagger) it's a matter of tuning. You might have to give up some turn speed for straight speed. Tuning is tough. (Al Nunley)

You can see the folly in throwing darts at something you know nothing about, meaning my spreadsheet.
 
You can see the folly in throwing darts at something you know nothing about, meaning my spreadsheet.
Click to expand...

Folly?

I'll have to concede with you on that one....seems to be a lot of "folly." ;)


I have to disagree with you that "The only thing you need for calculating stagger is turn radius."
There's nothing wrong with your spreadsheets, per sea, or even measuring the radius of a particular turn. Information is golden. Please re-read my post and at least try to understand what I tried (evidently failed) to convey before becoming so defensive. Not everyone is out to get you -- we're here to help others, just as you are.
 
Al, the track width is the distance from the outside of the LR to the outside of the RR tires contact patch. The scenario that I described above about why you cant calculate gear ratio due to amount of bite available is the same reason we dont calculate stagger based on turn radius. If I am at a short track with no bite, lets say a tenth of a mile track, and I cant keep the rear under my kart in the corners I will start reducing stagger until the problem is corrected. For instance I was at an indoor event a year ago and went down to 3/4 rear stagger and won the race because it helped patch the problem of lack of grip in the track. Your spread sheet probably would have calculated 2 inches of rear stagger needed. Now fast foward to later in the year, I was running a 1/4 mile track with wide sweeping corners. Your spread sheet would have probably calculated 3/4 rear stagger or less was needed at this track, but I was on 1 1/8 and won the money and their were a lot of great racers in the event. Why 1 1/8 you ask? The grip level was so high that I ran a lot more cross and kept my LR planted through the corners and used the stagger to turn it. Think about it like this, some people preload the LR so much that it never lifts and they need more stagger. Some people prefer to unload the LR with less weight on it and upon turn in it lifts more and they need less stagger. This is why everyone that races argues with you based off of their experience. Its not because they dislike you. Read this and it will make sense.
 
Also as mentioned the track width does have a lot to do with it. A narrow track width will need less stagger than a wider track width to complete the same arc. Moving the LR out also makes it unload more weight quicker which in turn calls for a reduction in stagger. Does your spread sheet figure in the track width being a variable?
 
Wes Snow said:
Also as mentioned the track width does have a lot to do with it. A narrow track width will need less stagger than a wider track width to complete the same arc. Moving the LR out also makes it unload more weight quicker which in turn calls for a reduction in stagger. Does your spread sheet figure in the track width being a variable?
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. It uses the radius of the arc of the LR tire.

If the track is narrower, as a matter of fact, the arc of the LR tire is different. As a matter of fact, the difference in track width, within reason, has only a small effect on the radius of the arc and the difference in stagger. Moving the left rear out changes the calculations only minimally. In any case, my spreadsheet calls for the C – C distance of the rear tires in order to make the calculations.

I'm not sure that measuring to the outside edge of the rear tires is a way to go. I believe center to center measurement are best. In any case, my spreadsheet can use both, but the center to center measurement is more precise.

It amazes me, nobody seems to know the radius of the tracks they're racing on. They don't know where the measurement was taken to decide how long the track is. If there is banking, they failed to point that out let alone tell anybody how many degrees of banking.

Your stories about different staggers on big and small tracks is very interesting. Without more information there is no way I can dispute what you say.
 
Al, I'm only guessing I offended you by using the leading a horse to water statement. That I only used after you did. You come on here and call people ignorant but it's not ok for people to call you ignorant? You are resistant if someone doesn't agree with you, you argue with them and always say your spreadsheet says this. Well, if your spreadsheet and you are as good as you think. Everyone would have them and use them. If you think they are that great. Pay someone's tire bill give them all the answers and tire prep and let's see what you got. Quite frankly figuring out arcs and radius's of a turn are relatively easy. Time consuming but easy. Data yes, needed no. You will not and I guarantee you will not see any of the big names measuring the track and calculating turn radius for their setup, gear and tire choices. Period. Find someone to give tires and advice to and have them test your theories. Until then they are in fact theories. Like I said before. Sometimes close most times not. People have proven both.

From the desk of Al Nunley 512-630-6215
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)

Should take your own advice. Criticism towards you is not welcome. Real life data doesn't support your theory as you have no real life data so, should you get a new theory?
 
alvin l nunley said:
As has been said often in the past, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. It sometimes amazes me the resistance I see to new ideas.

Actually knowing the size of the track you're racing on, what a concept. All I can think is; it's just too radical an idea.
Click to expand...

LOL....what new idea? Remember this?

alvin l nunley said:
I have a CAD/CAM program with which I can lay out tracks of any size. I have one track laid out, 1/10 mile, (528 feet measured on the inside line.) and I'm surprised at how big it is. The straightaways are 125 feet, while the corners have a 44 foot radius. That means 88 feet between the straights. Are the 10th mile tracks really that big? Besides me, does anybody care? LOL.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
Click to expand...

Ted Hamilton said:
They make roller measuring wheels that you could walk it off to measure with..
.
shop673.jpg
Click to expand...

rebsfan4 said:
My question is, what's new? Any time I have used my trundle wheel to measure corner radius, I have always measured the preferred driving line. I would think that's only normal.
Click to expand...

alvin l nunley said:
tell me how you measure the corner radius with a trundle, maybe I'm missing something?

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
Click to expand...

DarthDuck said:
Simple..........you start at the point where the radius begins then move to the point where you want to establish the length of the radius...........can also be done with a tape measure........or any other measuring device.
Click to expand...

rebsfan4 said:
^^^That way^^^
Click to expand...
 
Track size is very often irrelevant. I've been to tracks back to back weekends, one being very small with tons of bite, the other being much bigger with very little bite..... The small track took a 16 driver to make the most speed and the big track took a 15 driver to make the most speed. The same being said with rear stagger. Amount of available grip, how much speed can be carried, engine type, tire brand, prep, momentum or high rpm drop, just too many variables to even have a uneducated baseline to start off with.

This is 100% my opinion, 28 years of experience and that is how 99% of the time I come to an educated guess.
I respect everyone's way of coming to their starting point, and I will never say someone is wrong.
 
alvin l nunley said:
...................It amazes me, nobody seems to know the radius of the tracks they're racing on. They don't know where the measurement was taken to decide how long the track is. If there is banking, they failed to point that out let alone tell anybody how many degrees of banking................
Click to expand...

Why does that amaze you?

In your honest opinion, what is the proper way to build a dirt oval kart track?
 
Crazyboyracing7 said:
Al, I'm only guessing I offended you by using the leading a horse to water statement. That I only used after you did. You come on here and call people ignorant but it's not ok for people to call you ignorant? You are resistant if someone doesn't agree with you, you argue with them and always say your spreadsheet says this.
Click to expand...
If you can point to even one instance, just one, where I called anybody ignorant, I will apologize to that person immediately. In fact, I can only remember one instance where I used the word ignorant. And in that instance I said, "you must think me ignorant". That can hardly be construed as calling somebody ignorant.

Telling lies about someone, and what they said, can hardly be called criticism.
 
DarthDuck said:
Why does that amaze you?

In your honest opinion, what is the proper way to build a dirt oval kart track?
Click to expand...
I would think that somebody would know this information. The fact that people give out setup information about a track they know nothing about makes me wonder. In fact, amazes me.

Building a track, such a challenge. I know one thing, until I had thoroughly investigated it, I wouldn't do a thing. After that;
I would start with; how big is the area where you want to build the track? The length and the width? This would give me an idea of the constraints on what size track I could build. I would consult with others who have built a track. I'm sure they would have a lot of information on the pitfalls to avoid. Along with that, I would be consulting with experts on the suitability of the site for the construction of the track. I'm sure there are all kinds of things you would need to know in order to do it properly. There are experts in this field who can give you that information. Not knowing anything about earthmoving, I would have to leave that up to the experts.

Never having built a track, I would go through a lot of information gathering using the advice of others who have already gone through the process. First-hand experience is invaluable.
 
alvin l nunley said:
..............Telling lies about someone, and what they said, can hardly be called criticism.
Click to expand...

Would you then consider the lies to be complimentary praise?

If someone posts a lie about you, that should be an excellent opportunity for you to post the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth.........to set the poster and readers straight. :)
 
Al wrote:

"The fact that people give out setup information about a track they know nothing about makes me wonder. In fact, amazes me."

Unless someone on here has asked for a baseline stagger which can be used on any track, which I read you are not speaking to, you are not correct when you say advice is given "about a track they know nothing about". Except if the general question I proposed is or has been asked Al, you are not correct.

I also do not think you are correct about being amazed. I do not think you are so ignorant, to not be able to understand at least one reason, why people can give advice on stagger, about tracks they know very little about.

Please show us one incident Al, that advice was given on a track, which no information was provided?

This is not about the ability of others Al. It's about your lack of ability, lack of experience, lack of knowledge and lack of being able to change your theory, when your theory does not support the evidence.

What is the reason Al, you cannot change your theory?

Why Al, is it >not< possible to successfully use two different staggers on the same track, with the same equipment?

If you concede it is possible, what is the point of learning of track measurements?

If I'm understanding your theory correctly, your indicating track measurements can be taken and they will >single< out via calculations, the best stagger. If they are to provide a baseline only, then it has to be assumed the actual needed stagger will likely be different then the baseline.

Is your intent Al, to show a calculated baseline is closer to the correct baseline, then one given through experience?

If others amaze you because they have the experience and knowledge to provide someone who asked a good baseline, based on very little knowledge of a particular track, you should look to gaining what you are lacking in knowledge and theory.

Yes Al, just like you understand through calculations that track width, will not effect stagger very much for a 1/8 mile oval; those with experience understand 1/8 mile named tracks of different lengths and turn configurations will not effect stagger very much.

You told us their experience amazes you. Your amazement should lead you to wonder why it is so, not why it can't be correct. Prove how it can be correct Al and your amazement will end, your wondering and amazement will never end trying to prove otherwise. The answer is Al, their answer is correct because of ... :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top