Rules Question need opinions

Xcludedracing

New member
Ok if you had to choose between these two tracks what one would you go too?

Track One....
Open tire rule akra rules on clones and wka on fh and uas rules on opens

Track Two....
Burris tires only akra on clone wka on fh and uas on opens

Ok the only difference being tire rules what track do you think would be fair and draw more karts
Just put track one or two for your answer thanks.
 

W5R

New member
the one with open tire rule will probably draw more karts, but the one with the burris only rule will probably be the more fair and closer racing....
 
Track one.
But you have to understand that Burris pays tracks to run his tires. This may be good for the track owner, but for me it’s a consideration.
You see, I’ve known Mike Burris for over 40 years. His dad, who developed their clutch, was one of the great guys in karting. I really respected his dad.
Comments, compliments, criticisms and questions always welcome.
 
I'll Comment
Always good to know what your talking about before comment, Burris pays NO Track to run there tires, Burris created a marketing strategy where if a track uses Burris tire rule they support that tracks banquet with certain amount of product. ( Period )
 
I'll Comment
Always good to know what your talking about before comment, Burris pays NO Track to run there tires, Burris created a marketing strategy where if a track uses Burris tire rule they support that tracks banquet with certain amount of product. ( Period )
Sounds like paying the track to me. But that’s JMO.
I wonder; is that “certain amount” based on anything?

Comments, compliments, criticisms and questions always welcome.
 

JPMKarting

Premium User
Sounds like paying the track to me. But that’s JMO.
I wonder; is that “certain amount” based on anything?

Comments, compliments, criticisms and questions always welcome.
Certain amount is usually based on entries....the more karts that race that track, the more tires they have to buy, the more the tire company will kick back at the end of the year

A tire rule (regardless of the manufacturer) is good for any track/series
 

CarlsonMotorsports

Premium User
A tire rule (regardless of the manufacturer) is good for any track/series
Even better for the manufacturer.

Look, this discussion is all subjective and opinionated. I'll throw my opinion out there -- tire rules cost everyone that doesn't already own that specific brand (and often times specific compound or date code).

Track #1 excludes no racers based on their budget, personal preference, or whatever other reason they have for not buying a specific company's tires.

Track #2 excludes racers who want freedom of choice, want to run a cheaper tire, want to run brand "X" that came on their kart, want to run a faster tire, want to run a sponsored brand of tire, want to run a tire that requires significantly less "work" (cutting, prepping, etc) to be competitive.

I have yet to see a specific brand tire rule that saves all racers money. Even if you spec the cheapest import tire made, there will be some guy that already owns a different brand set of tires and plans on running that set all year. Another racer is sponsored with tires from another brand. Still yet, there are plenty of used tires available for $5 ea that are plenty usable after some national events (Maxxis specifically) -- you'd be hard pressed to prove to someone who regularly runs take-offs or "scuffs" from some of the bigger teams that purchasing a set of another specific brand (Burris or other) will save them any money. In fact, it will cost them considerably more. What I don't see here is "cheap" scuffs or take-off Burris SS33A tires (which is the predominant spec tire in the midwest.) I regularly sell sets of 33As for $200 on wheels, while Maxxis sets bring considerably less due to their popularity here in the midwest. Being that the OP offered open tire rule vs Burris tire rule, you have to take that important fact into consideration (there are no cheap used "spec tires" available.)

Tire rules don't save racers money. They do give the tracks the sponsorship needed to have a better banquet. Is that paying the tracks? Is the product they are giving to the track (to be given to the racers) worth anything? I tend to think so. Semantics at best! I am certain that the tracks place a VALUE on the tire company's sponsorship. Tire rules are an "easy" way for track or series promoters to get much needed money/product for their banquets. I certainly don't fault the promoters that choose this method of funding their banquets. We can all be thankful that the tire companies do what they do -- without their support in most cases, I dare say that our points banquet awards stage would be pretty barren.

Thanks,
Brian Carlson
 

Don K

Member
racing promotor says, "Option #2 Tire rules better for the racer NO matter what tire it is." and

JPMKarting says, "A tire rule (regardless of the manufacturer) is good for any track/series".

How?

DK
 

JPMKarting

Premium User
Even better for the manufacturer.

Look, this discussion is all subjective and opinionated. I'll throw my opinion out there -- tire rules cost everyone that doesn't already own that specific brand (and often times specific compound or date code).

Track #1 excludes no racers based on their budget, personal preference, or whatever other reason they have for not buying a specific company's tires.

Track #2 excludes racers who want freedom of choice, want to run a cheaper tire, want to run brand "X" that came on their kart, want to run a faster tire, want to run a sponsored brand of tire, want to run a tire that requires significantly less "work" (cutting, prepping, etc) to be competitive.

I have yet to see a specific brand tire rule that saves all racers money. Even if you spec the cheapest import tire made, there will be some guy that already owns a different brand set of tires and plans on running that set all year. Another racer is sponsored with tires from another brand. Still yet, there are plenty of used tires available for $5 ea that are plenty usable after some national events (Maxxis specifically) -- you'd be hard pressed to prove to someone who regularly runs take-offs or "scuffs" from some of the bigger teams that purchasing a set of another specific brand (Burris or other) will save them any money. In fact, it will cost them considerably more. What I don't see here is "cheap" scuffs or take-off Burris SS33A tires (which is the predominant spec tire in the midwest.) I regularly sell sets of 33As for $200 on wheels, while Maxxis sets bring considerably less due to their popularity here in the midwest. Being that the OP offered open tire rule vs Burris tire rule, you have to take that important fact into consideration (there are no cheap used "spec tires" available.)

Tire rules don't save racers money. They do give the tracks the sponsorship needed to have a better banquet. Is that paying the tracks? Is the product they are giving to the track (to be given to the racers) worth anything? I tend to think so. Semantics at best! I am certain that the tracks place a VALUE on the tire company's sponsorship. Tire rules are an "easy" way for track or series promoters to get much needed money/product for their banquets. I certainly don't fault the promoters that choose this method of funding their banquets. We can all be thankful that the tire companies do what they do -- without their support in most cases, I dare say that our points banquet awards stage would be pretty barren.

Thanks,
Brian Carlson
Brian,

That would all be fine and good if you had a clean slate of a state to start with....meaning that, lets say for instance in Indiana you had 10 dirt tracks and they were ALL NEW...never had a race run on them, and everyone that raced karts in Indiana previously had to travel to other states to race karts...and in those other states all the tracks were open tire and everyone mostly ran Maxxis. Wouldnt you think it would be a wise idea for those 10 new tracks to make it a Maxxis tire rule? That way all those racers had to run the same Maxxis tires in Indiana as they did in every other state.

Its all about MAJORITY....when your in an area that predominately uses "X" brand tire, how does it make sense to have a track/series that is OPEN tire? Say 5 racers go to an open tire track for 5 weeks straight. Each team has one brand of tires - Maxxis, Firestone, Vega, Burris, and Unilli. On ANY given night, ANY of those tires could be fast...now each team has to buy the other 4 brands of tires (and probably a few sets of each) to have what they need in their arsenal to go compete. On top of that, their is a reason that used Maxxis and Firestone tires sell for $5-$20 a tire...because they aint worth anything after they have been run for 20 laps, in most cases. Show me a set of Burris SS-33A that cant be run more then a few weeks and be fast. Thats why they have high re-sale value, because they are still usable.

All an open tire rule does is add costs to racing. Now instead of having one brand of tires and 2-3 sets of that brand, I need to have 4 brands of tires, and 2-3 sets of each brand, that have no resale value when they are done. Its not hard to see in the numbers. It makes absolutely no sense to make a track an open tire rule in a state where the majority of tracks have a tire rule, just the same as it would make NO sense to have a track with a Vega tire rule in a state where every other track has a Burris tire rule (just an example)
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
option 1 for us
 

CarlsonMotorsports

Premium User
Real Simple it saves racers Money.
What saves racers money?
A spec tire brand rule?

Couldn't disagree more!

If your intent is to honestly save racers money, then institute a "one set of right sides per night" rule. Regardless of brand, that would save racers money per night. The problem is, it doesn't help the tire companies sell tires. Tire companies are in business to make money -- and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that! I just hate to hear the excuse of instituting a tire rule as "it saves racers money." It most certainly does not. If I have enough money for one set of tires (and they don't happen to be the brand you enforce), then I cannot run at your track without buying your brand of tires = that COSTS me MORE money, or that rule just excluded me. If I get free, or discount tires, from a sponsor (that isn't the brand that you enforce), that costs me more money or excludes me. If I run used tires (again, they're not the brand you enforce), that excludes me. If I choose to run a cheaper tire (pick one - Unilli, Kings, just about any, etc.) then you have excluded me with your "money saving tire rule."

I've run both open tire tracks and spec tire tracks and I can show you the bills from running both - from karts over 40 years to sprint cars 15 years. Spec tire rules are the same - they benefit the two parties that signed the contract the most: the tire company and the promoter. To be competitive at a Burris only series, you're still going to want as many tires as you can afford and then some. I personally own more Burris tires than all other brands combined! Remember, you can only run 4 tires on the kart!
Picking the "right" 4 tires is just as complicated (or simple) with one brand as it is several brands. With one brand, you find yourself with several sets cut at different thicknesses. You have different template cuts (round cut, flat cut, etc.) Then you have several of those sets prepped differently (internal, # of ounces, outside coats, etc.)
A set of "competitive" Burris tires MUST be cut and prepped. That is not always the case with some other brands. Can you win on a set of sticker Burris? Not likely. So now, you take arguably one of the most expensive brands of tires and just made them considerably more expensive by paying a tire guy to cut, finish, etc your tires just to be on that proverbial level playing field.


Each team has one brand of tires - Maxxis, Firestone, Vega, Burris, and Unilli. On ANY given night, ANY of those tires could be fast...now each team has to buy the other 4 brands of tires (and probably a few sets of each) to have what they need in their arsenal to go compete.
Why in the world would the "have to buy the other 4 brands of tires?" I hear this argument regularly from the "pro tire rule" crowd. This is simply not true. You and I both know that you can pick one of 2 (maybe 3 brands at most) of tires and be fast ANYWHERE. Some tracks are going to be more low/no bite where your Burris, Vega, and Hoosier tires will be fast. As a track bites up, Maxxis will get fast, and if it really bites up, Firestones will be fast. RARELY (if at all) will you be at a high bite track where a Burris, Vega, or Hoosier will be fast. Same can be said about running Maxxis or Firestone at a low bite track. So, basically, you are limited to 1 or 2 brands to begin with (especially at the local Saturday night track where the track and the kart count is much more predictable. What I find more the norm is that when a midwest/northeast local track goes from a Burris rule to open tire rule, is that Burris tires are still the tire of choice there. Keeping it open tire rule allows more guys to run whatever they choose, thus not excluding anyone based on tire brand choice. I would never take a set of Burris down south to most tracks and even expect to be on pace - nor would you. Likewise, there are tracks up here that Maxxis & Firestone don't stand a chance on a typical Saturday night surface.
No one seems to want to start a spec "engine builder" or spec "chassis" rule. If you race at track "X", you need to ride on a Phantom chassis with Miller power. Now, no one would honestly think this is best for the sport (even if the sponsoring companies kicked in way more than any tire company ever would,) and the choice was the "majority." It simply wouldn't be accepted. Yet, racers typically take a tire rule on the chin being told that it is for their own good.

What I find interesting in all the great tire debates is that so many people believe that running a spec brand tire saves the racers money and evens the playing field, while we all still see the best racers with the best resources winning regardless of what brand of tire they are on. If a guy is good on open tires, he'll be good on spec tires. Take a peek inside the trailers of the consistent front runners. They have a trailer full of tires -- one brand or open. That's not because they just like to spend money -- it's because it gives them an advantage! I'll take 20 sets of spec tires over 2 sets anytime. Didn't seem to save those racers any money either.

Again, this debate gets old -- everyone is entitled to their opinions. You've got yours, I've got mine. I'll continue to sell tires of every brand and cut and prep some brands more than others. As a racer (and an American), I like the freedom to choose what brands I purchase for my own use. Most don't want the track telling them they can't drink their favorite cold beverage at the end of the night because it's not the track's "spec" brand. Even if it tastes better. :)
 
A local Fri or sat night show goes open Tire rule at a track where the owner does not allow his track to be the same week after week he changes it up some, Racer a has been racing there for yrs on say 11's only needing 2 sets softer and harder, now it's open tire rule hot shoe joe shows up and spanks him on juiced vegas for 2 weeks, guess what he's going buying Vegas, now after 2 more weeks hot shoe harry shows up and spanks everyone on juiced Maxxis now racer a is going to buy Maxxis, The average local fri night or Sat night racer does not have the knowledge or experience to read the track properly he chalks getting spanked up to the Tire that hot shoe got on, in turn feels forced to go buy additional sets of tires, where if it were a tire rule and Hot Shoe showed up and beat him on 11's he just chalks it up to racer being more experienced does not go purchase new 11's.

Very Simple how it saves the Avg Racer MONEY
 

CarlsonMotorsports

Premium User
I think you further proved my point when you bring up allowing different compounds as well. Now a racer has to have 11, 22, 33, and 55s in their trailer? At least on the Maxxis deal you've got one tire (Pinks) that you work differently. With all the Burris compounds being allowed, you'll have guys with sets cut and prepped all over the place and at every different compound too.
Keep in mind, I'm not against Burris -- I appreciate everything Mike & Kurt do for tracks and series. I am just not in favor of a one brand tire rule. In fact I'm against duro rule, and several other methods tried over the years. The only rule that I've seen really work that actually saves the racers money is a one set rule on the right sides. It works, it's easy to enforce, and it limits the amount a guy can spend on any given night.

Very Simple how it saves the Avg Racer MONEY
And what does this"average racer" get at the points banquet for supporting the track all season long and purchasing the spec brand of tires?
Let's assume the "average racer" has "average" finishes each night, and finishes a respectable, but "average" 3rd place in year end points? How did this tire rule help him?


Very simple -- the savings just doesn't add up!
 

davea7

Member
Unfortunately not everyone goes to the banquet and unfortunately not everyone that does go receive anything from a tire manufacture.
 

CarlsonMotorsports

Premium User
A local Fri or sat night show goes open Tire rule at a track where the owner does not allow his track to be the same week after week he changes it up some, Racer a has been racing there for yrs on say 11's only needing 2 sets softer and harder, now it's open tire rule hot shoe joe shows up and spanks him on juiced vegas for 2 weeks, guess what he's going buying Vegas, now after 2 more weeks hot shoe harry shows up and spanks everyone on juiced Maxxis now racer a is going to buy Maxxis, The average local fri night or Sat night racer does not have the knowledge or experience to read the track properly he chalks getting spanked up to the Tire that hot shoe got on, in turn feels forced to go buy additional sets of tires, where if it were a tire rule and Hot Shoe showed up and beat him on 11's he just chalks it up to racer being more experienced does not go purchase new 11's.
Same scenario.....
Spec tire track promoter uses calcium or lets the track get hard and bite up....Hot shoe shows up and bolts on a set of B55As...Spanks the locals....Do the locals buy a set of 55's now? How is this ANY different than buying a set of Maxxis?
Furthermore....put up a big money race to draw in 150 or more karts and watch most local tracks bite up with a prep groove and guys are going to their tire racks for a set of flat cut 55's punching 50. What do the locals do now? You can't buy cuts on the spot at most tracks, and if you do, they'll be pricey! A set of Pinks/Blues would be MUCH cheaper in this scenario.

As a track or series promoter I get the sponsorship value. I really do. From a racer's perspective though, it's still expensive to race - no matter what brand of tire you're on.
Ol Hotshoe, in your case, is going to be fast if everyone's on spec Flintstones!
 
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