131 bilett Sudam crank.

T

ttownwideglider

New member
How do you compensate for the additional stroke . Base gaskets will change the port timing by raising the cylinder. Do you add a spacer under the head and make a custom gasket? Dont the Sudam use a oring plus copper gasket under the head. Thinking about buying a 131 crank and want to know how everyone else is doing it before i buy one. Dont sell those old Sudams yet Iam working on a power adder that will make the stroked and bored 142cc engines very competative hp wise with the big bore 4 strokes and 250 s strokes. Dont want to go into detail until i get the bugs worked out but it looks real possible to get 75hp out of one of these strokers and maybee a little more. They should also stay very dependable with billet crank and cases.
 
Glider <--This I got to see !! HOW or what "widget/gizmo" you'll add/mod/incorporate to extract 12-13hp more from the strongest wildest SUDAMs 124cc - 147cc that I've ever seen or heard of. There's Turbo, Supercharge, Nitrous, EFI, FI, & NITRO (did I omit anything?). And how has any of those worked out on a consistent practical basis ? I'm not going to bet the farm against it bc man did fly, split the atom, land on Mars, created the electron microscope, & shot a deep space probe to Uranus. DiVincci, Einstien, and the like I'm pretty sure your not & perhaps almost anything is possible; but Again...12-13hp more from max max...This I got to see !!

"Iam working on a power adder" "Dont want to go into detail" " it looks real possible to get 75hp out of one strokers and maybee a little more."

ttownwideglider said:
How do you compensate for the additional stroke . Base gaskets will change the port timing by raising the cylinder. Do you add a spacer under the head and make a custom gasket? Dont the Sudam use a oring plus copper gasket under the head. Thinking about buying a 131 crank and want to know how everyone else is doing it before i buy one. Dont sell those old Sudams yet Iam working on a power adder that will make the stroked and bored 142cc engines very competative hp wise with the big bore 4 strokes and 250 s strokes. Dont want to go into detail until i get the bugs worked out but it looks real possible to get 75hp out of one strokers and maybee a little more. They should also stay very dependable with billet crank and cases.
Click to expand...
 
Yeti Racing said:
Glider <--This I got to see !! HOW or what "widget/gizmo" you'll add/mod/incorporate to extract 12-13hp more from the strongest wildest SUDAMs 124cc - 147cc that I've ever seen or heard of. There's Turbo, Supercharge, Nitrous, EFI, FI, & NITRO (did I omit anything?). And how has any of those worked out on a consistent practical basis ? I'm not going to bet the farm against it bc man did fly, split the atom, land on Mars, created the electron microscope, & shot a deep space probe to Uranus. DiVincci, Einstien, and the like I'm pretty sure your not & perhaps almost anything is possible; but Again...12-13hp more from max max...This I got to see !!

"Iam working on a power adder" "Dont want to go into detail" " it looks real possible to get 75hp out of one strokers and maybee a little more."
Click to expand...

The electron microscope (SEM) now that is one cool device.
 
Yeti Racing said:
Glider <--This I got to see !! HOW or what "widget/gizmo" you'll add/mod/incorporate to extract 12-13hp more from the strongest wildest SUDAMs 124cc - 147cc that I've ever seen or heard of. There's Turbo, Supercharge, Nitrous, EFI, FI, & NITRO (did I omit anything?). And how has any of those worked out on a consistent practical basis ? I'm not going to bet the farm against it bc man did fly, split the atom, land on Mars, created the electron microscope, & shot a deep space probe to Uranus. DiVincci, Einstien, and the like I'm pretty sure your not & perhaps almost anything is possible; but Again...12-13hp more from max max...This I got to see !!

"Iam working on a power adder" "Dont want to go into detail" " it looks real possible to get 75hp out of one strokers and maybee a little more."
Click to expand...

Give him some space Yeti. Glider is a thinker. He thinks he has something, well let it become. F1 in the turbo era were making around .66Hp per cc. At 131cc that would equate to a 131 having 86.5Hp. The chambers in the F1's were bigger at the time. I think 70Hp@130-140cc is possible but at what cost? And what longevity? I would think the piston would need to be ceramic to withstand the heat though. Heat is power. I don't think the thermal barriers commonly available could deal with that sort of extreme.
 
I would put spacer or more base gasket to equal 1/2 the stroke increase. Put a degree wheel and dial indicator on it and plot the ports.
 
To keep the same port timing you'll have to raise/lower the jug and possibly use head gaskets to adjust the compression. in this case is a combo of both.
 
Ok Arc
Some reasonable space fine, but 20% - 25%+ beyond the current max max. Let me know when pigs fly bc those would make one heck of a dietetic Lite BLT avocado sandwich which I just happen to have a hinker'n fer. ;p

arc100 said:
Give him some space Yeti. Glider is a thinker. He thinks he has something, well let it become. F1 in the turbo era were making around .66Hp per cc. At 131cc that would equate to a 131 having 86.5Hp. The chambers in the F1's were bigger at the time. I think 70Hp@130-140cc is possible but at what cost? And what longevity? I would think the piston would need to be ceramic to withstand the heat though. Heat is power. I don't think the thermal barriers commonly available could deal with that sort of extreme.
Click to expand...
 
arc100 said:
F1 in the turbo era were making around .66Hp per cc. At 131cc that would equate to a 131 having 86.5Hp.
Click to expand...
one liter is 1000 CC's. That means 660 horsepower per liter. How big were those engines? I remember them being two liter but I'm not sure.

From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
 
Yetti this BUDS for you, I have a few bits of info for you to contemplate. From your list of POWER ADDERS two will do little if anything to add actual overall power to the engine. EFI, FI wll add very little power they will in fact increase throttle responce and fuel economy thought. So now we have elinmanated two off your list.This brings us back to the original big three, forced induction, Nitrous, Nitro. In the past Nitrous and nitro have caused extreem wear and premature engine failure. Forced induction is very costly and complex. I am developing a totally new varation of one of the old standbys. It will easily add a 25% increase in power and still allow the dependability of the engine to be retained. When i get the final calculations done and test the prototype the proof will be in the pudding. I dont come on here making redicules claims about power as some involved this post have done, so time will tell. This is still in the design stage and may not work as well as i plan but i truely believe it can be done. Adding 15HP to a 60HP engine is not that hard to believe if my numbers prove to be correct. Yetti since your such a good buddy and all, If it works I will sell you a kit for double what everyone else gets it for. Just taking care of the good ol boys. HA HA LOL
 
yes i believe one of the hottest f1 engines ever was a sub 2L making around 1200hp and i believe it was well into the 50psi+ region. it takes a hell of a turbo to make that kind of pressure and not be a slug getting there even with anti-lag etc. forced induction on a 2 stroke at some point becomes counterintuitive. the exhaust can only support so much reversion before the cylinder charge pressure overcomes it. more pressure than that just produces hotter charge air.
 
The listing is going to be the Achilles heel of this. The piston was designed to make like 35hp. Mr Collins will tell you that the best 131 will make no more than 52hp and we are pushing the limits there of the pistons reliability. I'm not sure what you have planned but to get that much power out of that size engine I am sure there will be several Big Bang Theories!
 
Brian there are aftermarket forged pistons that are durable enought to get that much HP out of. Woosener makes one of the best, they are extremely strong. By the way Brian I am refering to a 142cc stroker making 60HP which is not unreasonable 57mm stroke and 56mm bore. Which still keeps it close to a square engine which i like much better than a long stroke.I believe that a short stroke engine will accelerate thru the rpm range much quicker than a long stroke. Thats why Iam not real sold on the 250mxs 2s as a pure racing machine.72mm stroke is very long and takes much more time to get into max rpm range. That is also why they only rap about 11,000 My main concern is the bearings durability and strength. I will also be using either Timken or a very high quality Germany bearing instead of the stock IAME stuff.The rod bearings and even the crank bearings will be at thier limits. Thats why i said I will be using bilett crank and cases for this upgrade. Those are the other weak links in this project. I believe between the two different cooling aspects incorperated, I can controll the heat enought to save the dependability of the engine. I also intend on Nickelsiling the cylinder helping the sleeve to disapate the heat much better. I appreciate all the negativie input,becuse someone telling me i cant do something drives me to do it even more. Its all a matter of funds now to produce the prototype and do some testing. The theory is sound and I truely believe I will make it work. The weight savings from Sudam to a 70lb speedway or a 450mx will be cut in half yet still have close to the same HP. This will also be a big plus.
 
I am currently building a 250 rotary valve. I picked the 72mm stroke and with the S3 Stars head that has has the inserts that change the compression. It will need some testing but I stand firm that the rotary valve engine is the best most efficient engine ever produced.

I think given enough time and money you could get that much hp. But the question will be how long will the engine stay together.

Frankie
 
True That !!
Glider -- " I believe that a short stroke engine will accelerate thru the rpm range much quicker than a long stroke. "

And maybe pigs can or will fly, and I'm not really from Missouri but "Show Me" anyway ;p

Yours truly
Doubting Thomas
 
Frankie using the system iam talking about the longevity of the engine wont be compromised much at all. This system has been developed with the 2 stroke air cooled engine specifically in mind. The components will be a little more expensive for the quality needed to complete this build. I believe that it should last a full season just as a regular 142cc Sudam will. As I stated before a billet crank and cases will be required , top notch forged piston and the best bearings money can buy. . These are the only components that will be exposed to the extreme pressure from developing this kinda HP. I have discussed the system with a couple top notch engine builders. They all agree with the theories and are very interested in seeing how well it actually preforms. The new applications to an old standby system have been somewhat mind blowing as one guy said. Talking to another engine builder soon Jim Zimmerman to get somemore input on certain aspect of the build I having trouble with. Yeti the last time you and I conversed on here I swore I would not ever do that again. So go on and smoke another big fatty and and find someone else to aggravate, I really don't care what you have to say.
 
ttownwideglider said:
Brian there are aftermarket forged pistons that are durable enought to get that much HP out of. Woosener makes one of the best, they are extremely strong. By the way Brian I am refering to a 142cc stroker making 60HP which is not unreasonable 57mm stroke and 56mm bore. Which still keeps it close to a square engine which i like much better than a long stroke.I believe that a short stroke engine will accelerate thru the rpm range much quicker than a long stroke. Thats why Iam not real sold on the 250mxs 2s as a pure racing machine.72mm stroke is very long and takes much more time to get into max rpm range. That is also why they only rap about 11,000 My main concern is the bearings durability and strength. I will also be using either Timken or a very high quality Germany bearing instead of the stock IAME stuff.The rod bearings and even the crank bearings will be at thier limits. Thats why i said I will be using bilett crank and cases for this upgrade. Those are the other weak links in this project. I believe between the two different cooling aspects incorperated, I can controll the heat enought to save the dependability of the engine. I also intend on Nickelsiling the cylinder helping the sleeve to disapate the heat much better. I appreciate all the negativie input,becuse someone telling me i cant do something drives me to do it even more. Its all a matter of funds now to produce the prototype and do some testing. The theory is sound and I truely believe I will make it work. The weight savings from Sudam to a 70lb speedway or a 450mx will be cut in half yet still have close to the same HP. This will also be a big plus.
Click to expand...

Are you using a Sudam cylinder with the cast iron sleeve? If so, Nikasil will not help with heat transfer, only if you use an aluminum sleeve and plate that will it help with heat transfer. Also there are several shorter strokes big bore engines. Some of the older YZ's were 68mmx68mm, RM's had some 70mmx64mm, Many of the older A/C engines were 70mmx64mm and 72mmx60mm. I also doubt that a 142cc will make anywhere the torque of a 450cc. It will be interesting to see with what you come up with, but I'm afraid the reliability to get that kind of power is going to suffer. Another thing to think about is adding a power adder you will also have to add 15# to your weight so your 142cc will have to weigh 387#.
Good Luck, Brian
 
Just to chime in on the f1 thing, when BMW was running the m12/13 engines I believe the most boost the fia let them have was 5.4 bar in qual trim this made an estimated 1300 bhp. Now they successfully ran these engines in test situations near 7 bar and its pretty well believed these engines made north of 1500 bhp. The only road race engine I believe to make a thousand hp per liter. Gotta remember this was almost 30 years ago and it's based off an engine that is 50 years old.

Makes me wonder what motorsports would be like if there were venues where innovation was allowed to follow natural progress without regulation instead of always trying to envoke limits, or parity among competition.
 
Oh Glider ........ LOL ;p

ttownwideglider said:
Frankie using the system iam talking about the longevity of the engine wont be compromised much at all. This system has been developed with the 2 stroke air cooled engine specifically in mind. The components will be a little more expensive for the quality needed to complete this build. I believe that it should last a full season just as a regular 142cc Sudam will. As I stated before a billet crank and cases will be required , top notch forged piston and the best bearings money can buy. . These are the only components that will be exposed to the extreme pressure from developing this kinda HP. I have discussed the system with a couple top notch engine builders. They all agree with the theories and are very interested in seeing how well it actually preforms. The new applications to an old standby system have been somewhat mind blowing as one guy said. Talking to another engine builder soon Jim Zimmerman to get somemore input on certain aspect of the build I having trouble with. Yeti the last time you and I conversed on here I swore I would not ever do that again. So go on and smoke another big fatty and and find someone else to aggravate, I really don't care what you have to say.
Click to expand...
 
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