250cc 2 stroke kart engine

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ttownwideglider

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I was just wondering why cannook or buller has not developed a 250cc single cylinder kart specific engine for the UAs class. This is why all the 2stroke mx engines have entered the picture to get maximum allowable ccs. The 150 BRC is a great engine but a 250 with kart specific porting to make max torque at a lower rpms would be perfect. Should be able to produce them for the same kinda price as the 150. Billet head and cases for mounting to kart rails. Low weight extremely strong and total screamers developed to make max torque in the desired rpm band for dirt tracking. All that would be left would be a pipe developed for the porting of that special engine, with bends specific to matching a karts needs for positing. In this form a 250 two stroke would be quite capable of running with the big 4srtokes. Strap it on and go, no extra mods needed.
 
Mitch, I think it's because of the cost of development time , tooling, manufacturing has to have a good return on investment, I just don't think the market could support that at this point. And since there are 250's that have been developed for dirt racing, that will dilute their market some more, look at what Tim's doing, his engines would be much cheeper and probably as good, yes they have been developed for the motocross market but they are not that far off from what is needed for speedway. That power band can only be moved around a little if you want to make 50 hp and have some over rev. IMO Jon
 
ttownwideglider, (Mitch) email MrSouth59 he will help you with all the info you are asking,. He has lots years of experience. In fact he is probably the best racer team on Bob's. He has a 48 enclosed trailer , and I also had one but now I down size to a 28 since last year , I only hauls 6 karts
 
Now that's REALLY FUNNY there George Spit my super cold bud all over the place, and that's a real waste of good brewskee. But it was worth it still laughing bout datt. But your probably right he does know more that Chad Knauss. Good thing for Nascar he isn't running J.J.s team or superman would be up to about 10 championships now. Hey George sorry to hear about the downsizing iam sure you cant hardly race anymore and 59s IS BIGGER THAN YOURS. LOL. Now that's FUNNY too. Get ere done. Hey Jon good to hear from ya got some news and will have access to those cylinders real soon. But If Canook was willing to do the 150Brc why not go ahead and spend the time with the 250 and build a REAL BADBOY. The 250mx engines need a lot of development to reach the level of the BRC in a 250 format. It should be very capiable of 65-75hp #s out of the box. If he can keep the cost around 2,600 like the 150 I think he would have a real winner> JMO
 
Actually way back when Riley came out with his plans to make the brc 150. I asked him what it would cost to make billit conversion cases for the 250 MX engine. The response he gave me kinda put the idea down as being expensive not worth doing and that the 150 was the best way to go engineering wise. Too me I kinda took it as a slight. So I started looking into making them myself. All I can say is thanks Riley for inspiring me. Lol.
 
ttownwideglider said:
Now that's some REALLY FUNNY SHI* there George Spit my super cold bud all over the place, and that's a real waste of good brewskee. But it was worth it still laughing bout datt. But your probably right he does know more that Chad Knauss. Good thing for Nascar he isn't running J.J.s team or superman would be up to about 10 championships now. Hey George sorry to hear about the downsizing iam sure you cant hardly race anymore and 59s IS BIGGER THAN YOURS. LOL. Now that's some FUNNY SHI* too. Get ere done. Hey Jon good to hear from ya got some news and will have access to those cylinders real soon. But If Canook was willing to do the 150Brc why not go ahead and spend the time with the 250 and build a REAL BADBOY. The 250mx engines need a lot of development to reach the level of the BRC in a 250 format. It should be very capiable of 65-75hp #s out of the box. If he can keep the cost around 2,600 like the 150 I think he would have a real winner> JMO
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Where did you find a complete, race ready brc for $2600?
 
I love reading and seeing all the different theory's about motor packages, what I still can't understand is most of the stuff people want is more then they can handle now, or actually get to the ground. 99% of the time when everyone gets beat has nothing to do with hp. I don't get to race as much as I like with running mods a lot, but I can testify that mx 250 with a little work on alchohol, with the stock tranny is all you need to get it done, and you can pick one up for under 800 with mount and all, till someone can make a reliable package for under that is, in my mind a waste of time. Tim Taft can testify to what mine can and has done, and will do. I have a fresh cr250 with tranny cut off and on new jackshaft minus clutch for sale if someone wants. I still believe most people need to get more handling and tires issues figured out before working about more hp options, contrary to what most believe the cost of some of these style engine was the downfall of the Uas. No one an justify in my mind 3000+ for any kart engine, or over 1000 to freshen some of them. Just my opinion, don't take any of it the wrong way, I love reading all ideas, I'm a racer like everyone else and still try stupid stuff to lol. I even like reading Andrew (mrsouth59) posts, there defenitly entertaining. Lol
 
First of all, The 250 BRC engine is designed. It is capable of 85hp and will rev to 13 grand. It would have a balance shaft and be fuel injected. Heres the problem: It willl be no where close to the same price as the BRC150. It willl be extremely expensive and extremeley fast. So who will buy such an engine and will anyone be left in the class? Thats the question. Would it even be good for the class's future? Currently we have yet to feel "outrun" on the 150. We feel it reasonably priced. Our bolt on race ready kit comes with complete engine with dual carb setup, jackshaft and complete drivetrain with 4-disc clutch, radiator, radiator mount, C/A-1 Exhaust, waterpump and pulley. You add water and fuel....$5950.00 This is in-line with the PK250 which is a great engine. As far as I know Tim doesnt offer complete engines but his cases are awesome and very well priced. So I can assume you create your own budget with that engine and spend as much or as little as you want. The 450's bike motors are strong but need aftermarket hot parts to get it up to real speed. That cost dollars too. Riley and myself have talked extensively about the BRC250. He would have to quickly sale 20 engines to make it a good investment. Is the market there yet?? Will it ever be?? So the future will telll, but currently this motor is on the back burner....but could be moved forward. So that being said, we have the BRC150WW in stock in any form you want. Engine with intake and header at $3500.00 We can build to suit from there. We have a couple of house motors that we would sale. Darrell Brooks has the setup for sale we were leading the 2012 Grands until the last lap. Fast package. There are alot of opportunities and power currently available and we encourage anyone to buy something and get involved in the UAS. I advised Wiggins on his Jawa setup and it was very successful. It sold quickly and he is currently building two more I know of. We have a complete race ready package for sale after the Hickory KARTMANIA show next week. All new 2013 SHP Excentric with a BRC150WW race ready with tires and wheels. $10500.00 We do complete setups with PK250'S, BRC and will soon have a surprise setup to unveil in the coming month.
 
Hey Seay, I'll call you Monday I totally forgot about the noses and wing, sorry bout that just been busy. If anybody needs noses Seay's are defenitly the ticket, have found anything no where near as nice.
 
SeayHiPerformance said:
First of all, The 250 BRC engine is designed. It is capable of 85hp and will rev to 13 grand. It would have a balance shaft and be fuel injected. Heres the problem: It willl be no where close to the same price as the BRC150. It willl be extremely expensive and extremeley fast. So who will buy such an engine and will anyone be left in the class? Thats the question. Would it even be good for the class's future? Currently we have yet to feel "outrun" on the 150. We feel it reasonably priced. Our bolt on race ready kit comes with complete engine with dual carb setup, jackshaft and complete drivetrain with 4-disc clutch, radiator, radiator mount, C/A-1 Exhaust, waterpump and pulley. You add water and fuel....$5950.00 This is in-line with the PK250 which is a great engine. As far as I know Tim doesnt offer complete engines but his cases are awesome and very well priced. So I can assume you create your own budget with that engine and spend as much or as little as you want. The 450's bike motors are strong but need aftermarket hot parts to get it up to real speed. That cost dollars too. Riley and myself have talked extensively about the BRC250. He would have to quickly sale 20 engines to make it a good investment. Is the market there yet?? Will it ever be?? So the future will telll, but currently this motor is on the back burner....but could be moved forward. So that being said, we have the BRC150WW in stock in any form you want. Engine with intake and header at $3500.00 We can build to suit from there. We have a couple of house motors that we would sale. Darrell Brooks has the setup for sale we were leading the 2012 Grands until the last lap. Fast package. There are alot of opportunities and power currently available and we encourage anyone to buy something and get involved in the UAS. I advised Wiggins on his Jawa setup and it was very successful. It sold quickly and he is currently building two more I know of. We have a complete race ready package for sale after the Hickory KARTMANIA show next week. All new 2013 SHP Excentric with a BRC150WW race ready with tires and wheels. $10500.00 We do complete setups with PK250'S, BRC and will soon have a surprise setup to unveil in the coming month.
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I'm not sold on the 2cycle EFI thing yet. What I do know is that the GP bikes with their enormous budgets and facilities they never ran EFI. Riley comes out of the back corner and just nails it?

IDK, sounds to easy. I know most of the problems with racing 2 cycle EFI. Just seems strange to me that the big 5 manufacturers of bikes never got full EFI to the track with success. Maybe they did and it got banned IDK. Wasnt into bikes that much.

Electronic carbs is pretty much how i think 2cycle dirt bikes ended up.
 
trackchampion said:
i love reading and seeing all the different theory's about motor packages, what i still can't understand is most of the stuff people want is more then they can handle now, or actually get to the ground. 99% of the time when everyone gets beat has nothing to do with hp. I don't get to race as much as i like with running mods a lot, but i can testify that mx 250 with a little work on alchohol, with the stock tranny is all you need to get it done, and you can pick one up for under 800 with mount and all, till someone can make a reliable package for under that is, in my mind a waste of time. Tim taft can testify to what mine can and has done, and will do. I have a fresh cr250 with tranny cut off and on new jackshaft minus clutch for sale if someone wants. I still believe most people need to get more handling and tires issues figured out before working about more hp options, contrary to what most believe the cost of some of these style engine was the downfall of the uas. No one an justify in my mind 3000+ for any kart engine, or over 1000 to freshen some of them. Just my opinion, don't take any of it the wrong way, i love reading all ideas, i'm a racer like everyone else and still try stupid stuff to lol. I even like reading andrew (mrsouth59) posts, there defenitly entertaining. Lol
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so u only wont 800.00 for your engine ready to go.
 
kent said:
so u only wont 800.00 for your engine ready to go.
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The cr250 I have for sale has brand new piston, brand new BMW jackshaft, gear on motor with belt, ignition have a carb I'll throw in, you'll need the rest, you want pics text me at 813-368-5554, I'll take 800 all day long, lol
 
Chris brings up allot of interesting topics and commentary. Responding to the long list of pro's and cons to his comments causes me to go on a long rant of opinion on my part so bare with me.

First off all of this is exactly on line with this thread, I'm glad to hear that BRC is going to produce a 250 kart engine capable of huge numbers. It's also interesting they sit in wait for the little guys to build a market they would be interested in competing in. Says allot right there. On the other hand this will have 2 effects, It gives potential to run off a large number of average racers that clearly will not be able to afford such a package. That in it'self opens the door wide open for guys like my self to develop affordable alternatives.
This is market forces at work. I say bring it on!. competition via manufacturing and and involvement of large company's only helps the growth rather than hurting the sport.
The advent of the Wankle, and it's costs have opened a huge market of competition of out of the box thinking and engineering.

The 250 MX engine fills the bill for performance and cost effective competitive engine packages. It can be bought cheep, it can be run as is, and it can be developed as a kart specific engine package.
Turning a 250 at 13,000 rpm is not a hard number to achieve for the average guy. It does require thought and development.
85 hp is a waist of time and energy to achieve on a dirt oval kart. Having the potential is great but no where near needed.

In my position I cannot afford to challenge company's like BRC, Seay Performance, or ProKart and Steve Gleasons PK 250 in manufacturing and precision. I'm a tiny little garage and only one guy with no money, no experience in engineering or machining.
I make parts for guys so the average guy will have the oppertunity to compete with the big guns I just mentioned. The MX engine both 250 2 stroke and 450 4 stroke have given the sport the base line package and aftermarket components in a very affordable way so the average guy and the average garage mechanic can and will slay the big guns.

As Chris and Steve have announcements so will I, Affordable 450 engine packages, a new 250cc Rotary valve engine, electric on board starting, the list grows. My time is just eaten alive so allthese things will happen. The sport will continue to grow and the demand will for sure bring the BRC 250 to reality.

In short the 250 MX engine is affordable, it has the power bone stock to compete with any of the high dollar engine packages, It's after market products are in the tens of thousands, It has house hold name recognition, It's the no. 1 engine package for the little guy.
I personally can't wait. If nothing else I love the challenge.
 
SeayHiPerformance said:
First of all, The 250 BRC engine is designed. It is capable of 85hp and will rev to 13 grand. It would have a balance shaft and be fuel injected. Heres the problem: It willl be no where close to the same price as the BRC150. It willl be extremely expensive and extremeley fast. So who will buy such an engine and will anyone be left in the class? Thats the question. Would it even be good for the class's future? Currently we have yet to feel "outrun" on the 150. We feel it reasonably priced. Our bolt on race ready kit comes with complete engine with dual carb setup, jackshaft and complete drivetrain with 4-disc clutch, radiator, radiator mount, C/A-1 Exhaust, waterpump and pulley. You add water and fuel....$5950.00 This is in-line with the PK250 which is a great engine. As far as I know Tim doesnt offer complete engines but his cases are awesome and very well priced. So I can assume you create your own budget with that engine and spend as much or as little as you want. The 450's bike motors are strong but need aftermarket hot parts to get it up to real speed. That cost dollars too. Riley and myself have talked extensively about the BRC250. He would have to quickly sale 20 engines to make it a good investment. Is the market there yet?? Will it ever be?? So the future will telll, but currently this motor is on the back burner....but could be moved forward. So that being said, we have the BRC150WW in stock in any form you want. Engine with intake and header at $3500.00 We can build to suit from there. We have a couple of house motors that we would sale. Darrell Brooks has the setup for sale we were leading the 2012 Grands until the last lap. Fast package. There are alot of opportunities and power currently available and we encourage anyone to buy something and get involved in the UAS. I advised Wiggins on his Jawa setup and it was very successful. It sold quickly and he is currently building two more I know of. We have a complete race ready package for sale after the Hickory KARTMANIA show next week. All new 2013 SHP Excentric with a BRC150WW race ready with tires and wheels. $10500.00 We do complete setups with PK250'S, BRC and will soon have a surprise setup to unveil in the coming month.
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Chris Here is a suggestion you and canook might consider. Sometimes pricing involves the consideration of not only profit margin but the amount of volume. Many more units sold at a lower profit margin will exceed large profit made on a very few units. Cost efficiency will involve a much larger market in the UAS. You will also have a much larger base for parts sales and rebuilds. I understand that you are trying to design the most powerful possible 250, but consider this. I speak from many years of experience building many types of different engines Aircraft, Harley, hot rods, racing outboards and karts. Fuel injection does not increase torque or hp and is very expensive. The main benefit of mech. fuel injection is throttle response, quicker on and off by a few milliseconds. Stay with Carbon fiber reeds they will do 13,000 rpm fine. Cut the cost of the rotary valve. Maybee try and use some existing parts now made, billet rods, pistons, wrist pins, bearings. Make the billet heads, cases, and crank. Cast the cylinders removable high nickel sleeves. Cut the cost down but build the reliable high Hp, don't go to overboard. Keep it as cost effective as possible and make it more desirable to the masses. If you could make it very close to the cost of the 150 you would have a real seller. How much of a market will there be if its a lot more expensive than the new powerhouse Jawas and GMs. A brand new Ita. made GM is $5,000 and that's with CNC porting on the head makes more power than the Jawa.JMO
 
Thank you for your suggestions. I was only trying to answer your initial question. I can assure you Riley Willl has considered all your suggestions and beyond. Basically it comes down to $$ and ROI. The machining of the type engine Riley has designed is no small feat. The cylinders and rotating components are already available but probabaly not what you would think. The shear machining from billet and assembly and testing alone is huge. Like I said, just because you can and have the ability doesnt mean you will. We still have to make a living and the project be profitable. If BRC pursues this project, the UAS could not be its only market place. I understand the making it affordable to the masses, but the masses have to be there. Its just too expensive to have the "build it and they will come" posture. Iam sure however, that there are other manufactures already planning a single cylinder billet 250 project for SuperKart racing. It will eventually happen. The fuel injection project is well under way at BRC. Riley is a tinkerer and this is something that can really help in the tuning of mutilple cylinder engines. Like I said, currently the PK250 are Tim Taft cases are in better position to serve the market place because they offer affordablity and options. You are correct, the GM is a better choice than the jawa. All the serious speedway champions run the gm for the most part. So that being said-stay tuned for the next SHP project! :)
 
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