498cc Dohc twin allowed?

This was entertaining for a while, now it is just ridiculous. Has any of this bickering and name calling accomplished anything...... No it hasn't. Easy way to resolve this set a date, time, and a track then settle all this nonsense there (make sure to let everyone know so they don't show up). As a past UAS racer who is planning on getting back on the track after a 2 year hiatus this amount of animosity concerns me. I started racing the UAS races to escape all the local track egos and win at all costs mentality. If all of you are willing to attack each other so vehemontly here, what is it going to be like at the track? That concerns me because I don't have a lot of money to be tearing up equipment because I got caught in the middle of a bunch of hot heads. Seeing as all this thread has become is personal attacks and serves no purpose. Please for the sake of everyone else who I am sure are tired of this BS also, take this to PMs and settle this. This isn't meant to offend anyone in particular, just a wake up call to make sure you all realize how juvenile you sound.
 
Jason,
You concerns, on the face of it, seem well founded.
However.....as I previously stated......Taft is a pleasant and harmless person at and on the track.

Racing, and accomplishing something positive in regards to racing seem to be a universe away from what goes on here, on the forum.
However, I personally, find it difficult (lack of self control no doubt) to read the foolish and deceptive postings of a person like Taft, who constantly attempts to shove down the throats, "facts" from his virtual world.....and are NOT facts in engineering and in the tangible world.

Now, it IS alleged that a personal agenda was publically stated before the finals of the BK race, and bragged about after that race......
which if found to be true, ought to, by the usual rules of motorsports, be followed by a large monetary fine, or in the case of a basically
amateur sport like karting, followed by a lenghty suspension......for participating in threatened wreckage.
I am sure that is a clouded issue, and I am in no way in a position to pontificate on it......as Taft did......from his catbird seat, only 4000 miles away.
Is there ANY aspect of motor sports which Taft does NOT consider himself having the last, most authoritive word on??
 
Amen to that Tim.....
Well Tim Chace, I think Terry said it best after that race, but again I wasn't talking to you!!! everyone knows who won that race!!,
.
this was, and still is to the big mouth Sir Tim Taft and his mighty PK250!! ""It must hurt your feelings to read facts!,You know you like facts as you insult the people who raced the BK6, Thats on you and your choice of words. It was you who made the comment that the tater diggers ran down the Jawa like it was a KT100. Being that the PK250 was leading the entire event It would appear it was you looking to bait the Jawa owner??"" Again Tim Taft .facts are facts!!!, from all the things you keep saying don't look like you much care about insulting the people who race everywhere!!


'He's a fence monkey?"

"the industrial based engine has never been able to compete with purpose built racing engines?"

"just some small minded people making some stupid commentary with total disrespect for their fellow racers?"

"You 2 clowns? . LoL. 2 fence monkeys?"

"There are some out here across the US that have worked for years to developed the UAS into what its becoming?" YES Tim Taft you were right about that!! there are peep all over the US that have worked for years to developed the UAS into what its becoming!!!!
and your a UAS administrator?? man they most be getting really Desprit for help if your the best they can come up with to represent the Unlimitided All Star as a administrator!!!
 
Paul,
I agree completly. Publicly stated threats of retalitation if found to be true and acted upon by an individual should be swiftly dealt with by the UAS region's Administrator who hosted the event. There is no place for that type of action in our sport.

Sometimes it is better to bite your tongue and respectfully agree to disagree before it comes to slinging mud at eachother, and resulting to personal attacks on one anothers character.

What you all don't realize is that you are influencing the bystanders that lurk in these forums that want to participate. They don't know you or Tim or anyone else, they just know that this may be something they want to try. But when they see the personal attacks and bickering like this, it can easily be contrued that this is how all the UAS is. You and I both know that this is far from the truth, but none the less that is how it can be percieved. None of this is accomplishing what I think all would like to see for our sport. From when I stopped racing 2 years ago till now the UAS has exploded in popularity, it seems to be finally getting the attention it deserves. When we post things in a public forum for all to see we each need to remember that we represent the UAS. What would a potential sponsor think if he/she came here and saw this thread, I think it just might put them off a little.
 
Barrettjg2.
I am sure you are 100% correct.
I find it a bit of a conundrum attempting to decide whether or not to respond to the Taft foolishness.
Don't really want to get in the outhouse with him, yet don't wish for his degrading/false remarks to go without challenge.

I avoided this thread for a few days, hoping my name would not spew out of the Taft bung.
He just couldn't leave well enough alone and came back with more false/disengenuous comment, using my name/initials.

I can tell you for sure, that any serious sponsor or effective administration, would at once ban all such conversation, under penalty of
banishment from participation in all sponsored events.

I hope my name/initials are not posted here again, and I shall NEVER post such negativitiy here again.
 
Well Tim Chace, I think Terry said it best after that race, but again I wasn't talking to you!!! everyone knows who won that race!!,
.
this was, and still is to the big mouth Sir Tim Taft and his mighty PK250!! ""It must hurt your feelings to read facts!,You know you like facts as you insult the people who raced the BK6, Thats on you and your choice of words. It was you who made the comment that the tater diggers ran down the Jawa like it was a KT100. Being that the PK250 was leading the entire event It would appear it was you looking to bait the Jawa owner??"" Again Tim Taft .facts are facts!!!, from all the things you keep saying don't look like you much care about insulting the people who race everywhere!!


'He's a fence monkey?"

"the industrial based engine has never been able to compete with purpose built racing engines?"

"just some small minded people making some stupid commentary with total disrespect for their fellow racers?"

"You 2 clowns? . LoL. 2 fence monkeys?"

"There are some out here across the US that have worked for years to developed the UAS into what its becoming?" YES Tim Taft you were right about that!! there are peep all over the US that have worked for years to developed the UAS into what its becoming!!!!
and your a UAS administrator?? man they most be getting really Desprit for help if your the best they can come up with to represent the Unlimitided All Star as a administrator!!!

You conveniently left out all the personal attacks against me . hmmmmm wonder why. My conversations where based in facts and engineering principles. Its your good buddy's that do nothing to contribute to the sport that run off course with their anti UAS agenda.
The UAS doesnt seek out administrators. People with drive passion and commitment seek out the UAS.

People like Paul Doss and Jerry Stevens seek only to destroy.
Yet you ignore their comments. I chose to engage them and not allow their cancer to spread with lies and miss information.

My comments about the industrial based engine are backed in fact. Its not a personal attack on any one.
I'm not a meteorologist but I can tell you if its raining or not.
You take offence to those comments and you make personal attacks at me. Then you try and complain its me being a know every thing. You sling mud then cry like a small school girl when it comes back at you. Same as the 2 other clowns.

Just saying. I'll leave you with the last word and let the growth popularity and success of the UAS do my talking.
 
with the political BS that the uas leadership has put in place the uas is not a place you can go and just race anymore you need to drive like they think you should you need to the uas would like to see 12" between karts at all times don't bump him even if he is blocking you from passing him with out contact that kind of thing I'm not saying to have a free for all on the track but let the racers race, don't have one set of rules for the frist 18laps of the GN race and a different set for the last 2. sponsors are not going to come and want to be a part of what we have right now just look at the big money races that have been happening for unlimited karts in the past couple of years they do not use anything but the engine and weight rules part of the uas series and they are becoming bigger and bigger just a few karts off of the GN race and only 6 karts that race at the money race ran the GN race that shows you that there is alot more karts that are not willing to race because of the choices that the uas leadership has choose to put in place....
 
You conveniently left out all the personal attacks against me . hmmmmm wonder why. My conversations where based in facts and engineering principles. Its your good buddy's that do nothing to contribute to the sport that run off course with their anti UAS agenda.
The UAS doesnt seek out administrators. People with drive passion and commitment seek out the UAS.

People like Paul Doss and Jerry Stevens seek only to destroy.
Yet you ignore their comments. I chose to engage them and not allow their cancer to spread with lies and miss information.

My comments about the industrial based engine are backed in fact. Its not a personal attack on any one.
I'm not a meteorologist but I can tell you if its raining or not.
You take offence to those comments and you make personal attacks at me. Then you try and complain its me being a know every thing. You sling mud then cry like a small school girl when it comes back at you. Same as the 2 other clowns.

Just saying. I'll leave you with the last word and let the growth popularity and success of the UAS do my talking.

more name calling way to go there rep for the uas!!
 
You conveniently left out all the personal attacks against me .
TT said:
There are no personal attacks on you.
There are responses to your degrading remarks, which are poor substitute for facts in hand.
First off, supposing your mistaken premise is true.....exactly how are you contributing to the well being of UAS by coming on here and declaring, over, and over, and over again, that the Wankels and piston 4 cycles are inferior engines? What value to UAS does that kind of inflammatory remark, coming from a vast source of ignorance, contribute to reader interest in joining UAS?
Later, same thread, you come back and say you "Like the 4 cycle and the Wankel". Such remarks, posted in the same context, indicate mental and psychological disfunction, to be expected only from some kind of self styled little Hitler lite.
Taft said:
My conversations where based in facts and engineering principles.
One who knows no facts, and/or engineering principles cannot post authoritively on what is, and what is not fact. Your version of facts have all the validity of statement that "apples taste better than oranges."
Taft said:
Its your good buddy's that do nothing to contribute to the sport that run off course with their anti UAS agenda.
There has been no greater backer and cheer leader of the Florida Stars and Unlimited Stars than myself.....Paul Doss. I have, over the years, with and without the likes of you, come on this forum and referrenced UAS as the greatest kart show on turf. Your ignorance of truth, or just ignorance, convicts you.
Taft said:
The UAS doesnt seek out administrators. People with drive passion and commitment seek out the UAS.

People like Paul Doss and Jerry Stevens seek only to destroy.
Yet you ignore their comments. I chose to engage them and not allow their cancer to spread with lies and miss information.

My comments about the industrial based engine are backed in fact. Its not a personal attack on any one.
I'm not a meteorologist but I can tell you if its raining or not.
You take offence to those comments and you make personal attacks at me. Then you try and complain its me being a know every thing. You sling mud then cry like a small school girl when it comes back at you. Same as the 2 other clowns.

Just saying. I'll leave you with the last word and let the growth popularity and success of the UAS do my talking.
You don't have to leave us with anything. Just leave!
 
Hey PD, Taft is correct in that a 2 cycle engine is the most powerful and lightest engine by design. Back in the 60's Honda figured out that for a 4 cycle to run with a 2 stroke the 4 cycle had to turn twice the rpm or be twice the size. That's why they went with 6 cyl engines that turned 20 thousand plus in the GP races. BUT if you go by design or theory a bumble bee isn't supposed to fly but it does! As far as the industrial engines not being able to compete, At this past years Big "O" race a Honda 390 would have won if the kart hadn't lost all brakes on the 2nd lap. You have to see where Taft coming from in this argument to understand it. His fulltime job now is to SELL his 2 stroke creations that he has developed so he wants the UAS and his company to move forward. He has put a lot of time and effort into what he is doing and I applaud him for it but I don't think he should drum down every other design so he can sell more of his. But in closing as far as power per pound though it's hard to beat a good crisp running 2 stroke.
 
CRS, as always you speak wisdom.
The 2 cycles must be good, as they were the engine of choice for the Lada, and various other unAmerican cars.
An interesting article....which supports 2 strokes is : http://social.rides.com/blog/44/2-stroke-cars-the-past-present-and-the-future

Re: motorsports, I kinda' like them all.....re: of engine type.
My son, when his age was in single digits, once remarked to me that when the two strokes lifted to go around corners, it sounded like a bunch of ducks quacking. (I never quite got that, but it was funny coming from a 9 yr. old.)

I have never figured out why anyone in racing would criticize a person and piece of equipment because it differed from their own preference.
My interests, in this forum, and in kart racing are in the 4 cycles. As an engine builder, I work to build an engine, or engine set, which will give a well prepared karter a good chance to win a race.......regardless of anyone else's preference.

When I worked for a shop in Chicago, which ran an Indy car, and later became a Trans Am factory team, this same type argument....almost word for word, was used in truly bitter exchanges, between guys who ran and preferred "sporty car" racing and those who were "oval track" racers. You could substitute the words "2 stroke racers" for "oval track racers" in this type thread.
In fact, the oval track racers called the sporty car racers "fruit cup" racers. That was because the trophy for most twisty track winners was some form or another of a cup. Thus, the "fruit cup" blast. There were also overtones, in that designation, to the possible sexual preferences
of the "fruit cup" racers.
I always regard that stuff as pure foolishness, as I regard an argument over the merits of differing engine types as irrelevant and without value.
In karting the engine rules are tailored to give the 3 types of internal combustion engines a reasonable shot at winning races. If all have a reasonable choice, then an individual's choice cannot be rationally subject to
outside criticism. Issues of budget, costs and goals are the sole and private business of the racer.
Issues of product, production, user cost, and suitability are the sole concerns of the producer.

None of these issues can reasonably be decided by pontificating on this or any other forum....or on the shop floor, for that matter. In fact, that argument is akin to the argument of what tastes better, apples or oranges.
 
For once I agree with you 100% PD. IMHO I think all of you guys are probly all good people in person. Puters do weird thing to words and posts. People take it the wrong way or don't read it the way the original guy wrote it as he would have wanted you to read it if that makes since lol? Anyways its winter time with a crap ton of snow in ohio and everyone is getting keyboard fever lol. Now with that said. BACK ON TOPIC and tell us more about those bad karts like the one pic of the blockzilla on nitrous!!!!! How about some videos of those beast karts!!!! that looks like to much fun! I've seen all this happen to much on diesel forums and once these parties usually meet face to face at a event any differences go to the way side in about 5 minutes or less. Lets face it. We are ALL here for the same reason right? To go fast on a go kart!
 
Hey PD, Taft is correct in that a 2 cycle engine is the most powerful and lightest engine by design. Back in the 60's Honda figured out that for a 4 cycle to run with a 2 stroke the 4 cycle had to turn twice the rpm or be twice the size. That's why they went with 6 cyl engines that turned 20 thousand plus in the GP races. BUT if you go by design or theory a bumble bee isn't supposed to fly but it does! As far as the industrial engines not being able to compete, At this past years Big "O" race a Honda 390 would have won if the kart hadn't lost all brakes on the 2nd lap. You have to see where Taft coming from in this argument to understand it. His fulltime job now is to SELL his 2 stroke creations that he has developed so he wants the UAS and his company to move forward. He has put a lot of time and effort into what he is doing and I applaud him for it but I don't think he should drum down every other design so he can sell more of his. But in closing as far as power per pound though it's hard to beat a good crisp running 2 stroke.

If you read my posts with out bias for your own particular love of engine choice. You read I'm talking about the engineering design. And not any particular engines ability to compete if given the displacement advantage.

The wankle is and always will be a great race purpose built engine. It has and will win many more races. How ever people like we all know who. Have and continue to want to ban it. My point from the beginning is that its a inferior engineered internal combustion engine to the 2 cycle. This proven by the fact the BRC 150 2 cycle has matched or exceeded the 300cc wankles performance at half the displacement. So the premise that kart racing is for piston driven engines only goes out the window.

With regards to the industrial based engine not being able to compete again taken out of context or just my opinion not coming over well in print. A purpose built race engineered 4 cycle or 2cycle or Wankle needs 0 modifications to be bolted on a kart and be race ready. The industrial based engine needs every single aspect of its design to be altered replaced or re engineered to compete. Thats it. I'm not running down other engines to sell my products, I'm stating engineering facts.
I recently had a call from one of the leading industrial based engine builders. He's interested in my 450 cases. His comment was " The hand writing is on the wall". The stress and limits of the industrial engineered engines are at their max. Sorry to those who love a particular design of engine.
Build em sell em race em.
I'm for all the engines to be built raced and bragged about.
Its the purpose of the UAS to have this exact competition. Any engine can win races given the correct circumstances, Charlies twin flat heads won the Summer Nationals in 07. these were clearly way down on power even to a stock 125cc sudam, Yet they won. a race any race is not evidence of engineering superiority, Its a accumulation of many factors.
My personal agenda is to make it affordable to the low dollar racer and not to any particular engine design. If I could find a way to reproduce a wankle at half cost of the Axio I'd be ramming molds.
 
Tim, I have some images of your case from a customer that I will soon post to our facebook. Good looking setup. Your doing and awesome job and giving racers a choice and big opportunities. That's is what encompasses the UAS. I speak with racers everyday across the country and YES, the UAS is growing. You don't measure it by the number of entries at a given race, but by the industry that supports it. My customers are building a myriad of engine types. Its exciting to hear each one talk about the engine package they have as if NO ONE else can touch it! That's what racing and the UAS is all about! I was speaking with Kevin Birkey (2013 GRand Nat engine builder) last night and his business is backed up building the air cooled motors. He's as busy as he's ever been. The state of the sport is healthy and I can attest to that. I don't waist my time with anyone elses issues with that. I do think its a little unfair to speak of industrial based engines as "industrial". Although the block may be, EVERYTHING else is cnc machined and impeccable. Then you have the billet blocks as well. So the "traditional" 4 stroke is realy a custom fire breathing monster. The Wayne Felch freightrain is off the HOOK! ThAT thing has the most interesting sound of any package out there and gets the job done on the track as well. The engine package is bullet proof and with talking with Wayne he favoured it over the 450 package he has too. Like I said earlier, the 2014 Grands will be interesting. The local 4-stroke chassis and tire gurus are gearing up and projects are well under way in secret garages everywhere. The Cali guys are sending messages that they are coming to spoil everyones fun. So already its starting to get interesting. So I say game on.....:)
 
In the field of engines, from the little fractional engines, to battleship engines, they are designed to full certain needs.
There is an attempt by racers to narrow the types, and make them compatible for racing.

If you put 10,000 two cycles, such as run here, would they have the ability to power a submarine, or one of Japan's monster
ships....designed to carry oil?
Well, no they wouldn't. Does that make the monster oil carrying engine/ship a superior design??
 
Maybe the time has run out on the title of "industrial" engines. In the context of dirt oval karting, perhaps the two new terms should be "purpose built" and "re-purposed". Re-purposed engines are coming from motocross/supercross bikes and fourwheelers, speedway bikes, generators, pressure washers, etc. Purpose-built engines are coming from sources building them specifically for karting, such as the Aixro 50, BRC-150, Sudam, etc. And even in those cases the engines are often built with a different kind of karting in mind. We should just appreciate and respect what others are doing with their powerplants from whatever source.
 
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it gives a man great pride to put together a industrial pressure washers package in his own shop that can run with the big dogs.. And yes Tim, I'am just a little POed at the driver of the Jawa kart in the BK6 for doing what he did in that race.. but after saying that, I all so think he is a all around good guy, the BK race up here means more to most peeps then the UAS GN dose, everyone whats to win it.. I have seen great drivers like #14 of smoke, and the #18 do things they wish they hadn't done after the race.. all you boys over there better keep your eyes open for both of them coming for that GN championship, its just a matter of time before they get their tire game down and their on the pole of the A main, and its you doing everything you can just to keep up.. can't wait for that to happend.. you GO#36 GO#44 time waits for no one...
And Taft, the #3 with your PK250 was fast as h,ll all weekend, so was all the boys from cali..
 
Tim, I have some images of your case from a customer that I will soon post to our facebook. Good looking setup. Your doing and awesome job and giving racers a choice and big opportunities. That's is what encompasses the UAS. I speak with racers everyday across the country and YES, the UAS is growing. You don't measure it by the number of entries at a given race, but by the industry that supports it......:)

Cris...i couldnt agree more with you! Up here in the northwest it is pretty hard to get EVERYONE together on a given day esspecially in the summer time but I hear everyday of people building 450's....250's...new chassis, ect... up here! I think as a whole it is definately growing! BK6 this year we saw not the most entries as we have had in the past but instead a pretty good variety of karts/motor packages! And most were pretty good! I am encouraged... Lots of people building stuff means its growing! Good for everyone!

#9
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