Animal BP vs 206 Super Stock
- Thread starter steve baker
- Start date
BrendanFitz#73
Mohawk Dawg
Here is something that I think should be uniform about the rules. One fuel type. Not only will it keep everyone closer it will keep everyone safer. The safety of gas compared to methanol has been discussed many times on here and methanol comes out on top everytime except the price difference. For me its a no brainer to run methanol especially since we race in the summer time. Cooler overall head temps, carb stays cooler (more dense charge), and it will make more power.
Gary I really like your comment about deviating further and further. These are stout motors on gas no doubt. But I think that methanol will only help the sprint engines and keeping it uniform is probably the biggest thing to help this class grow. If a guy with a 206ss on gas loses repetively to a 206ss on methanol the gas guy will probably convert anyway.
Gary I really like your comment about deviating further and further. These are stout motors on gas no doubt. But I think that methanol will only help the sprint engines and keeping it uniform is probably the biggest thing to help this class grow. If a guy with a 206ss on gas loses repetively to a 206ss on methanol the gas guy will probably convert anyway.
Unfortunately with 206 being the dominant class and running on gas it really only makes sense to try to keep everything on gas as much as I hate working on an engine that runs pump gas. I love working wth methanol in comparison but that’s never going to be what is run in 206. Having two different fuels to tech would be a pain for tech men and promoters/track owners to ensure it’s readily available.
steve baker
Moderator
Some technical changes would be required for the SS206 to run on pump gas. The current configuration with the level of HP / rpm will run way to hot for acceptable reliability. The red WF coil / 7100 would certainly help and possibly stay cool enough......not really sure.
With a BSFC of .45, as the RPM increases so does the fuel consumption and heat per time!
The big temp hitters are........RPM, lack of good air flow over the cylinder head, ignition timing, compression and poor header design in that order.
Steve
With a BSFC of .45, as the RPM increases so does the fuel consumption and heat per time!
The big temp hitters are........RPM, lack of good air flow over the cylinder head, ignition timing, compression and poor header design in that order.
Steve
Last edited:
Interesting Steve. I would’ve thought the Increased RPM would cool the engine by not lugging as hard out of the turns. From what I recall in the past racing with a CHT sensor the majority of the heat increase was under acceleration out of a corner and then more gradual down the straight but it’s been a long time since I’ve ran cht and I may be thinking it was like egt.
steve baker
Moderator
Watch your exhaust / head temps on the dyno. When using a water brake dyno you can simulate the track rpm profile. Higher temps follow the rpm.
Next time your on the track testing with one of those smart Micron's, plot the head temp & exhaust temp vs RPM's. Your highest temps will be right at the end of that long straight away.
Gary, Another way to think of it in simple terms.......you have twice as much fire going out the header at 8000 rpm than you do at 4000 rpm!
Last edited:
I think you have to tune the carb to run properly. You can’t spec something that doesn’t run optimally. It would make a carb that runs naturally leaner very desirable. The engine needs to run well and cool in spite of what the racer tries to do to it. Perfect reason why taping the side cover isn’t allowed.
steve baker
Moderator
Yes, some what but who is going to jet for lower HP. Racers / engine builders will be jetting for optimum power.
Well, that’s just what it. You tune the carb for conditions. If it’s hot you hear the motor if it starts to ping the motor that’s not pinging will be way faster. I usually keep two extra floats in my box preset at ..010 increments in case of changes in the weather.
Also, the WF calls out for 91 octane with a 9.5 -1 piston and a much smaller combustion chamber. So, I’m guessing the 206SS should be ok with the 91 octane.
I dont have a a fancy enough dyno to simulate race conditions. But, I can “park it” at specific rpm and load levels.
So, I guess I’m gonna hafta build another super stock for myself and start testing.
Also, the WF calls out for 91 octane with a 9.5 -1 piston and a much smaller combustion chamber. So, I’m guessing the 206SS should be ok with the 91 octane.
I dont have a a fancy enough dyno to simulate race conditions. But, I can “park it” at specific rpm and load levels.
So, I guess I’m gonna hafta build another super stock for myself and start testing.
steve baker
Moderator
Yep.............get testing young man!
Jimbo
You can fool some of the people some of the time
FWIW
People seem to have an UN-WARRANTED aversion to methanol.
I hear all kinds of poor excuses such as it's a carcinogen, drinking even a small amount can kill you or causes blindness, when it burns there is no visible flame, it's more expensive, and it's hard to get.
Lets put this in perspective:
There is a good reason early kart racers switched to methanol. Using gasoline in an air cooled flat head we saw temperatures of 450* quite often. Get the head temp on an Animal up to 450* and you may very well end your race day early because you warped the head and blew the head gasket. Especially if your kart is locked down because of sticky tires, improperly set up kart, lots of tight corners, tracks with longer up hill sections, Wrong gearing (lugging the engine) etc. Taping up the blower housing is a definite NO NO!!!
It's a carcinogen.
I don't think it's anymore dangerous than gasoline. No one with any common sense is going to purposely breathe the fumes of either fuel or use either one of them as hand cleaner.
How likely is automotive gasoline to cause cancer? The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) have not classified automotive gasoline for carcinogenicity. ... However, there is no evidence that exposure to gasoline causes cancer in humans
EFFECTS OF CHRONIC OR REPEATED EXPOSURE: Methanol is not suspected to be a carcinogen. ... It is unknown whether chronic or repeated exposure to methanol is a reproductive toxicity risk. Methanol may cause birth defects of the central nervous system in humans
Drinking it:
Who in their right mind is intentionally going to drink either.
So, in that sense- yes, drinking gasoline can cause you to go permanently blind. And just for reference, it doesn't take much swallowed gasoline to kill you- just half an ounce can cause severe intoxication for adults and even death for small children. A 12 ounce drink of gasoline will often be fatal to most humans.
Methanol toxicity is poisoning from methanol. Symptoms may include a decreased level of consciousness, poor coordination, vomiting, abdominal pain, and a specific smell on the breath. ... Methanol poisoning most commonly occurs following the drinking of windshield washer fluid.
Burning methanol:
Methanol flames are almost invisible in bright sunlight conditions, but they may be detected by the heat generated or the burning of other materials. Large amounts of water will remove heat and can be effective in diluting methanol to the point where most fires can be readily extinguished.
I have never seen a kart on fire but i have poured methanol on the floor and lit it and I've used it to start fires in the burning barrel and i can always see a flame because something else such as oil residue is burning with it.
If that aspect scares you add some top engine lube (oil) to your fuel.
Burning gasoline:
TO PUT OUT GASOLINE FIRES. Gasoline fires may be extinguished by smothering with wet rags, woolen cloth, sand, earth or ashes, if the amount of the fluid involved is small. If the amount is large, a little water spreads it; but a deluge of water smothers it.
Methanol is more expensive: The last time i bought some (about 6 weeks ago) i paid $2.75 per gallon for industrial methanol.
I see no difference in performance between industrial methanol and VP fuel which is twice as expensive.
High octane race gas is as much as $10.00 per gallon but is not necessary. Premium pump gas is sufficient for everything except really high compression engines.
Methanol is hard to get:
DEFINITELY NOT!! You just need to find that source in your area. There are probably several. My source is a Place called WALDO Oil. They have been in business for decades selling home heating fuels, race fuels, and are have recently become the company that i buy the propane from to heat my house and shop.
I also bring it to the track for people that want to buy it from me. I have bought many 55 gallon drums of methanol in my life time.
This is my opinion. Some of it is backed by science, some of it from experience and some of it is just my opinion.
It's up to you what you do.
Faster Motors or James R Frantz does not take any responsibility for what you do.
People seem to have an UN-WARRANTED aversion to methanol.
I hear all kinds of poor excuses such as it's a carcinogen, drinking even a small amount can kill you or causes blindness, when it burns there is no visible flame, it's more expensive, and it's hard to get.
Lets put this in perspective:
There is a good reason early kart racers switched to methanol. Using gasoline in an air cooled flat head we saw temperatures of 450* quite often. Get the head temp on an Animal up to 450* and you may very well end your race day early because you warped the head and blew the head gasket. Especially if your kart is locked down because of sticky tires, improperly set up kart, lots of tight corners, tracks with longer up hill sections, Wrong gearing (lugging the engine) etc. Taping up the blower housing is a definite NO NO!!!
It's a carcinogen.
I don't think it's anymore dangerous than gasoline. No one with any common sense is going to purposely breathe the fumes of either fuel or use either one of them as hand cleaner.
How likely is automotive gasoline to cause cancer? The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) have not classified automotive gasoline for carcinogenicity. ... However, there is no evidence that exposure to gasoline causes cancer in humans
EFFECTS OF CHRONIC OR REPEATED EXPOSURE: Methanol is not suspected to be a carcinogen. ... It is unknown whether chronic or repeated exposure to methanol is a reproductive toxicity risk. Methanol may cause birth defects of the central nervous system in humans
Drinking it:
Who in their right mind is intentionally going to drink either.
So, in that sense- yes, drinking gasoline can cause you to go permanently blind. And just for reference, it doesn't take much swallowed gasoline to kill you- just half an ounce can cause severe intoxication for adults and even death for small children. A 12 ounce drink of gasoline will often be fatal to most humans.
Methanol toxicity is poisoning from methanol. Symptoms may include a decreased level of consciousness, poor coordination, vomiting, abdominal pain, and a specific smell on the breath. ... Methanol poisoning most commonly occurs following the drinking of windshield washer fluid.
Burning methanol:
Methanol flames are almost invisible in bright sunlight conditions, but they may be detected by the heat generated or the burning of other materials. Large amounts of water will remove heat and can be effective in diluting methanol to the point where most fires can be readily extinguished.
I have never seen a kart on fire but i have poured methanol on the floor and lit it and I've used it to start fires in the burning barrel and i can always see a flame because something else such as oil residue is burning with it.
If that aspect scares you add some top engine lube (oil) to your fuel.
Burning gasoline:
TO PUT OUT GASOLINE FIRES. Gasoline fires may be extinguished by smothering with wet rags, woolen cloth, sand, earth or ashes, if the amount of the fluid involved is small. If the amount is large, a little water spreads it; but a deluge of water smothers it.
Methanol is more expensive: The last time i bought some (about 6 weeks ago) i paid $2.75 per gallon for industrial methanol.
I see no difference in performance between industrial methanol and VP fuel which is twice as expensive.
High octane race gas is as much as $10.00 per gallon but is not necessary. Premium pump gas is sufficient for everything except really high compression engines.
Methanol is hard to get:
DEFINITELY NOT!! You just need to find that source in your area. There are probably several. My source is a Place called WALDO Oil. They have been in business for decades selling home heating fuels, race fuels, and are have recently become the company that i buy the propane from to heat my house and shop.
I also bring it to the track for people that want to buy it from me. I have bought many 55 gallon drums of methanol in my life time.
This is my opinion. Some of it is backed by science, some of it from experience and some of it is just my opinion.
It's up to you what you do.
Faster Motors or James R Frantz does not take any responsibility for what you do.
Last edited:
Mac_49
Member
I just want to point out that to Jimbo's success with this, why are we trying to find different scenarios on how to run this package?
He's spent time to figure this out and has published a set of rules even on how this is all supposed to be teched.
If he specs alky, then you run alky. It's my belief that being an engine builder he, (Jimbo), has probably ran all the scenarios with gas and jetting and so forth to find the best outcome available....for a decent price at that! If alky is what drives people away from the motor or class then I believe you weren't fully committed to the SS kit as a whole to begin with. If you're willing to get down and dirty by opening up motors to swap out internals for more performance then you, as a builder, need to be 100% accepting of running alky if needed. It's nothing new to the racing world and isn't going away anytime soon.
Before tearing down what needs to change about it....try it first?
The 206 wasn't perfect out of the gate and has been through changes with feedback and testimonies. This should be no different.
He's spent time to figure this out and has published a set of rules even on how this is all supposed to be teched.
If he specs alky, then you run alky. It's my belief that being an engine builder he, (Jimbo), has probably ran all the scenarios with gas and jetting and so forth to find the best outcome available....for a decent price at that! If alky is what drives people away from the motor or class then I believe you weren't fully committed to the SS kit as a whole to begin with. If you're willing to get down and dirty by opening up motors to swap out internals for more performance then you, as a builder, need to be 100% accepting of running alky if needed. It's nothing new to the racing world and isn't going away anytime soon.
Before tearing down what needs to change about it....try it first?
The 206 wasn't perfect out of the gate and has been through changes with feedback and testimonies. This should be no different.
And the reason kart fires are rare is due to the use of methanol. Methanol flash point is 52-54 degrees F auto ignition is 878 degrees!. Gasolene is -45 degrees with auto ignition at only 536 degree. Methanol is a far safer fuel. I have seen one kart fire and it was quickly extinguished with a 5 gallon pail of water.
BrendanFitz#73
Mohawk Dawg
It is a well thought out package with the exception of being able to run either fuel. Needs to stay uniform across the board if it is going to grow and become its own class at multiple tracks.
How long will someone on gas chase someone on methanol before converting? Make it easy and start everyone off on the same fuel instead of mixing them and giving weight breaks.
How long will someone on gas chase someone on methanol before converting? Make it easy and start everyone off on the same fuel instead of mixing them and giving weight breaks.
steve baker
Moderator
Well guys....at this point all I can think of is get out there and promote it. It ain't going anywhere until tracks, series,sanctioning bodies and racers adopt it and add it to their racing programs! It would be a hell of a lot easier if Briggs Racing was all in 100%.......IMO !
I gotta ask, how does the CKNA feel about this program? If they would adopt this engine in their series somehow, I gotta think it could really take off, that is for Sprint racing! I have no idea who is in charge of all the dirt racing stuff.....maybe AKRA or NKA ?
Steve
I gotta ask, how does the CKNA feel about this program? If they would adopt this engine in their series somehow, I gotta think it could really take off, that is for Sprint racing! I have no idea who is in charge of all the dirt racing stuff.....maybe AKRA or NKA ?
Steve
Last edited:
Terry Nash
Member
Terry Nash
Member
Still sticking with the SS kit. The hard connecting rod is game changing in my world. Seen too many cast rod failures by both inexperienced and experienced racers. The cam in the kit is the bomb. Provides a linear power band that makes for great tuning results on the kart. Still believe the class will take off when drivers experience the package on the track with great competition. All in all i believe its good for 4 cycle racing.