Box Stock

Clone Motors - Can Pandora be put back in the box?

M

mikeincoppell

New member
I'm interested in some opinions and thoughts on if BSP clone motors can ever get back to what was originally intended. By that I mean in the triangle of speed, Fast/Cheap/Reliable, I'm choosing Cheap and Reliable. Remember you only get to choose two from the triangle. I'm hoping some of the guys on here that have dirt under their fingernails, Royal Purple in their veins, and visions of dynos in their sleep will chime in. Here are my thoughts on a spec clone motor to try and achieve this.

Block, cylinder head, valves, valvetrain, crankshaft, piston, coil, flywheel, carburetor, and blower housing/starter all per current AKRA BSP rules.

For reliability:
Billet connecting rod allowed but not required
Honda 18lb valve springs. Just take valve springs out of the equation.
Spec exhaust pipe, maybe a RLV 5438C w/muffler? The weenie pipe is just too prone to breakage.

For cost control/performance limit:
Spec cam. CL1 maybe?
Combustion chamber volume of 26.5cc minimum.
Carburetor restrictor plate, size TBD.

Here's my theory. The spec cam and decent springs keeps the valvetrain alive for a very long time. The combustion chamber volume limits compression and the restrictor plate limit the motor's ability to breathe. The restrictor plate could be sized to limit the RPM to around 6000, thus increasing the life of the motor while at the same time pulling the power back to a more practical level. Should make tech inspection easier and simpler.

What do you guys think, would it work?
 
No doubt , the Clone scene has become very expensive IF your following the big money races or the National circuit. Your rules are fine and I'm sure they exist somewhere at some track . Along with the price increases comes "class diversity" in racing like never before . Fast and Reliable or Cheap....They will NEVER be a trilogy. And Astro is correct again...lol
 
You have A great idea but it's just as easy to put a rev limiting coil on it and wouldn't have to worry about cheating restrictor plates
 
There's nothing inherently wrong with the motor or with the rules package.
People were saying the same thing about the flathead, which was arguably the most popular package karting has ever known. If you believe what karting needs is a beginner package that people can stay in forever, all you have to do is start one and get everyone to follow you.
It is how it is because that's how most clone racers want it to be.
 
Could be done ????? Only if you could have a reputable engine builder come in with a stock of race ready stock clone motors with oil ready to run, give them over to the track owner, you leave a deposit of $150. and pay $50. plus pay to have one oil change for the day, up to two races for that day. take anyone run it for the day return after the race clean with no alternation and get your deposit back....you bolt in and put on your clutch.........maybe a little more rules from the builder ....?
Look at it this way a new business, cheap and fair to race ...............Show up at the track with your Kart - engine, $50. plus 1 oil change you race two races ........Real stupid idea eh ...............Protest: if an engine fail the rebuilder pays ...............
 
I agree with everything stated thusfar, except for the 'restrictor plate'! "It's ILLEGAL".....(It it Not come from the 'Factory' that way!) :)
 
Lake said:
Could be done ????? Only if you could have a reputable engine builder come in with a stock of race ready stock clone motors with oil ready to run, give them over to the track owner, you leave a deposit of $150. and pay $50. plus pay to have one oil change for the day, up to two races for that day. take anyone run it for the day return after the race clean with no alternation and get your deposit back....you bolt in and put on your clutch.........maybe a little more rules from the builder ....?
Look at it this way a new business, cheap and fair to race ...............Show up at the track with your Kart - engine, $50. plus 1 oil change you race two races ........Real stupid idea eh ...............Protest: if an engine fail the rebuilder pays ...............
Click to expand...
...Ur right, however.....have you considered the complexity in such an endeavor? (ths is an amateur, non-profit sport)
 
mikeincoppell said:
I'm interested in some opinions and thoughts on if BSP clone motors can ever get back to what was originally intended. By that I mean in the triangle of speed, Fast/Cheap/Reliable, I'm choosing Cheap and Reliable. Remember you only get to choose two from the triangle. I'm hoping some of the guys on here that have dirt under their fingernails, Royal Purple in their veins, and visions of dynos in their sleep will chime in. Here are my thoughts on a spec clone motor to try and achieve this.

Block, cylinder head, valves, valvetrain, crankshaft, piston, coil, flywheel, carburetor, and blower housing/starter all per current AKRA BSP rules.

For reliability:
Billet connecting rod allowed but not required
Honda 18lb valve springs. Just take valve springs out of the equation.
Spec exhaust pipe, maybe a RLV 5438C w/muffler? The weenie pipe is just too prone to breakage.

For cost control/performance limit:
Spec cam. CL1 maybe?
Combustion chamber volume of 26.5cc minimum.
Carburetor restrictor plate, size TBD.

Here's my theory. The spec cam and decent springs keeps the valvetrain alive for a very long time. The combustion chamber volume limits compression and the restrictor plate limit the motor's ability to breathe. The restrictor plate could be sized to limit the RPM to around 6000, thus increasing the life of the motor while at the same time pulling the power back to a more practical level. Should make tech inspection easier and simpler.

What do you guys think, would it work?
Click to expand...

I hate to be negative about this but, this has been discussed and hashed out REPEATEDLY by everyone who feels or have felt they have or have had the next great idea on how to fix an out of control situatation.

The answer to your question as it pertains to the title of your thread is......NO. It is what is and will continue to be. No-one is going to go backwards with what is already in place.

The answer to you last question in your list of ideas is........START the class and find out!!! It could go nation wide.
 
I think that the rules are what are geared to the engine builders and suppliers to make $$$$ off of us..... Cam or pipe or this set of springs of theonth..... Spec one cam shaft put at least a set of 18 lb springs and rev limit the coil to say 6100 then no valve train issues and you can make all the power you want up until u hit the chip then your just as fast as the rest of the pack... Would save the racer a ton in the end and more competive hp # for everyone
 
Spec one cam shaft
Click to expand...
would be fine if there were only one cam manufacturer contributing to the sport. Since there's more than one, which one quits making cams for karting?
put at least a set of 18 lb springs and rev limit the coil to say 6100 then no valve train issues and you can make all the power you want up until u hit the chip
Click to expand...
The motor that makes the most power will get to the limiter first. Maybe we should just leave the governors in them. :)

This stuff is getting like a broken record, and IMO, is detrimental to the advancement of the sport.
The only thing the clone did was get popular, or "the cool factor". When it becomes cool to win a race, people will spend money on winning it.
Go ahead, try to stop them and see how that works for you, it's still America and it's their money.
You can fight city hall, but human nature is a bit harder to fight

If the rules are pushed beyond the limit of what the majority want, the majority will probably ditch the rules.
 
Bob Evans said:
would be fine if there were only one cam manufacturer contributing to the sport. Since there's more than one, which one quits making cams for karting?

The motor that makes the most power will get to the limiter first. Maybe we should just leave the governors in them. :)

This stuff is getting like a broken record, and IMO, is detrimental to the advancement of the sport.
The only thing the clone did was get popular, or "the cool factor". When it becomes cool to win a race, people will spend money on winning it.
Go ahead, try to stop them and see how that works for you, it's still America and it's their money.
You can fight city hall, but human nature is a bit harder to fight

If the rules are pushed beyond the limit of what the majority want, the majority will probably ditch the rules.
Click to expand...

X2 Well said.
 
Bob Evans said:
There's nothing inherently wrong with the motor or with the rules package.
People were saying the same thing about the flathead, which was arguably the most popular package karting has ever known. If you believe what karting needs is a beginner package that people can stay in forever, all you have to do is start one and get everyone to follow you.
It is how it is because that's how most clone racers want it to be.
Click to expand...

Bob, Hit the nail on the head here. I don't know about the rest but we (myself and drivers) will spend more on tires in a season than we do on motor by a fair amount. It is still possible to build a competitive motor for under $500 and in today's economy that's not a bad deal for a race motor.
 
For the record, my 'only' point is that I think 'Box-Stock' sud be 'Box-Stock' (within reason) FOR beginners! Once 'they' feel they are No longer a 'beginner', then....the door-is-open, as well is their pocket book!!
 
they already have this class it's called bp and very few support it. the difference parts wise between a bsp and bp is less then $100 by last years rules now that porting is allowed it will be more but still as dirt racer said I have less then 500 in my bp
 
the idea is sound and the rules as they are written are fine...but my opinion is simple. Find a cam that can be pulled and gauged outside the motor that will tech exactly as you define for the class. springs? don't worry about installed height or any of that....again, get a spec spring that can be removed and teched. Pushrods and rockers are easily measured and anything over this is illegal. Piston? stock only and it can be measured outside. Make the rod teched, but nothing more than length. basically, what I would look at is a total teardown of the motor. it only take about five minutes to do it and less that an hour to tech. it's not like the three hours that I did on a late model and that was only checking one head and the bore/stroke! too many are getting too far into the weeds to determine legality and it's becoming a nightmare. you don't have to have a one engine builder class or for that matter any engine builder. you make the rules as simple as possible, yet convey exactly what can and can't be done.

Pandora's box was opened when the first clone hit the track. it's way too late to try and close it, but ways and means can be used to keep it under control. my way of thinking has always been and always will be to keep it stupidly simple. the more technical the wash machine is, the easier it is to plug up the drain....get rid of 15 weights and one motor. you want a simple class (beginner, intermediate or advanced), then set ONE weight....one engine....one set of rules.

I know of one very simple class that was started, no purse, no money, just fun....then they allowed a little bit of money.....then they went to different weights....then they started modifying the engine....now the class is going good, but it's slowly getting out of hand...can I prove it? no...only by the results and what I hear....it's when I start hearing things about what others are doing to their motors and what "tweaking" they are doing that causes me to wonder about the so called "simple" classes...

again, Pandora's box has been opened and the only thing that we can do is try and control what happens....we ain't gonna win, but we can dang sure try!!!
 
It's been said many times and I have said it myself. ....Racer's are their own worst enemy. They always want to go faster, and will spend what ever it takes to do so.
 
harrym said:
It's been said many times and I have said it myself. ....Racer's are their own worst enemy. They always want to go faster, and will spend what ever it takes to do so.
Click to expand...

True ...agree with you....always wants to go faster, spend whatever it takes ..............
 
I agree but u can't have one weight class..305 lites and 350 med and 400 supers is the least u could run and be fair to all drivers
mikey56 said:
the idea is sound and the rules as they are written are fine...but my opinion is simple. Find a cam that can be pulled and gauged outside the motor that will tech exactly as you define for the class. springs? don't worry about installed height or any of that....again, get a spec spring that can be removed and teched. Pushrods and rockers are easily measured and anything over this is illegal. Piston? stock only and it can be measured outside. Make the rod teched, but nothing more than length. basically, what I would look at is a total teardown of the motor. it only take about five minutes to do it and less that an hour to tech. it's not like the three hours that I did on a late model and that was only checking one head and the bore/stroke! too many are getting too far into the weeds to determine legality and it's becoming a nightmare. you don't have to have a one engine builder class or for that matter any engine builder. you make the rules as simple as possible, yet convey exactly what can and can't be done.

Pandora's box was opened when the first clone hit the track. it's way too late to try and close it, but ways and means can be used to keep it under control. my way of thinking has always been and always will be to keep it stupidly simple. the more technical the wash machine is, the easier it is to plug up the drain....get rid of 15 weights and one motor. you want a simple class (beginner, intermediate or advanced), then set ONE weight....one engine....one set of rules.

I know of one very simple class that was started, no purse, no money, just fun....then they allowed a little bit of money.....then they went to different weights....then they started modifying the engine....now the class is going good, but it's slowly getting out of hand...can I prove it? no...only by the results and what I hear....it's when I start hearing things about what others are doing to their motors and what "tweaking" they are doing that causes me to wonder about the so called "simple" classes...

again, Pandora's box has been opened and the only thing that we can do is try and control what happens....we ain't gonna win, but we can dang sure try!!!
Click to expand...
 
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