Clone Motors - Can Pandora be put back in the box?

It's been said many times and I have said it myself. ....Racer's are their own worst enemy. They always want to go faster, and will spend what ever it takes to do so.

Yep...yep...yep...yep...yep

They done away with the gas tank amd allowed aftermarket with added fuel pump. OK...safety reasons
They done away with factory breather and allowed after market breather. OK....better quality control of air that entered the engine.
They done away with factory muffler and allowed aftermarket muffler (If you want to call it that). Ok...now somebody's making money
They done away with the governor and.........UH OH....HELLO PANDORA!!!!! :D
 
It's been said many times and I have said it myself. ....Racer's are their own worst enemy. They always want to go faster, and will spend what ever it takes to do so.

It's called racing, not pacing. Of course we want to go faster.

The tortoise only won the race because the hare was cocky and clumsy. Give the hare some humility and the tortoise never stands a chance :)
 
Bob, Hit the nail on the head here. I don't know about the rest but we (myself and drivers) will spend more on tires in a season than we do on motor by a fair amount. It is still possible to build a competitive motor for under $500 and in today's economy that's not a bad deal for a race motor.

I spend much more time on chassis, than anything else... then engine, then tires... My feeling is a poorly set up chassis can easily hide behind 'grippier' tires.
 
Can you put Pandora back in the box? Well of course you can, just snatch her up, toss her in and slam the lid shut. Not a problem at all.

The problem is what are you going to do with the thousands of racers surrounding the box. They all have jackhammers and are ripping the sides off that box to set her free again.
 
Clones are cheap.
When I think of what it cost to race the g200 back in the 80s I smile all day long.

And creative building is part of the sport.
Thats a fact of racing and what pushes innovation.
 
im just going to toss this out there... the "bsp" box has been opened... the truth is we as racers, tuners, and go fast kind of people cant leave anything alone once its out of the box... that's just the truth... I think the bsp class is doing the best that can be done for the most part... the only 2 down falls I see are... 1 the average guy cant build the motor to spec... there are just too many tools needed... go/no go gages, head cc'ing, so on... the 2nd being theres no drive to jump out of box stock at most tracks... now I want to add this... if all are worried a bought cheating this or that... make it an open rule!!! dude run any combo you want!!! but you have to run a stock rod, valves, piston... those 3 things will limit any power wanting to be made... over build and you go home with a box of parts...
 
Tired Of All The Crying

Bob, Hit the nail on the head here. I don't know about the rest but we (myself and drivers) will spend more on tires in a season than we do on motor by a fair amount. It is still possible to build a competitive motor for under $500 and in today's economy that's not a bad deal for a race motor.
I agree 100%., if you guys would spend more of your time working and learning how to work on these engines, rather than crying about this and that, you could save some money. Buy you a Box Stock engine kit and put together and then go out and run it on the track. If it does not perform like you want, try to start trying things like carb jetting, valve lash, spark plug heat ranges and engine running temp are just some of the things you should check. If you can not some do of these things or none of these things then get on here ask questions. I love to work these engines, I run SA and modified classes. You have 3 choices, #1 learn how to work on these engines. #2 Save up your money for a Top of the line Engine since you think that will automatically win races. #3 Quit racing!!!
 
Motors + Tires + Setup = Wins and Top Three Finishes. But you can't convince some that tires, tires, tires are not all that it takes!! mike00b and old school mike are 100 percent correct. you can't rely solely on tires to do anything. i know that i'm going to get arguements from those that think differently, but i've said it once and i'll say it again.....you have a crappy motor and a crappy setup, no amount of tire prep or tire goop in the world will make up for it and "give" you a win....

you miss one small part of the WHOLE equation and your mid pack or worse, a lapped kart in the way. tires hold you to the track, sure! admitted!! but if you don't have a chassis setup that lets you turn left and a motor that will accelerate off the corner and give you the top end you need....TIRES ALONE WILL NOT SAVE YOU!

ok...pandora is out and she's a b-word. we all want to go fast....we all want to win....we want it all. but that's not in the cards. i do think that a one engine rule and a complete set of rules governing that one engine will go a long way in helping, but i see too many variations with no positive incentives to advance. what i see is one engine with at least 4 weight classes and every race is only seeing 6 or less karts and the same karts are dominating. not saying that's wrong, but why have those "extra" weights when you can set it at one....say 375 and let the big dogs roar!! instead you have a 330, 350, 375 and 400 (only examples) and the same guys run in all of them...

gopherracing....i like the weights, but you have to control them...let them compete in no more than two of the three classes. this opens the third class up to letting others race for a win once in a while! i hate it when someone (even those that say "i've done my homework." which is a BS statement) dominates everything and everyone else is running for the first looser spot (2nd). i would actually start the class with a rookie class and that means.....if you have over say 5 races under your belt, you CAN'T race in the class......atually had one guy tell me one time that he can compete in the rookie class because he never raced at that track or class before, yet he was a multiple time champion at another track.....yeah....rookie....ya think?

ok...off the soap box.....

:)
 
Motors + Tires + Setup = Wins and Top Three Finishes. But you can't convince some that tires, tires, tires are not all that it takes!! mike00b and old school mike are 100 percent correct. you can't rely solely on tires to do anything. i know that i'm going to get arguements from those that think differently, but i've said it once and i'll say it again.....you have a crappy motor and a crappy setup, no amount of tire prep or tire goop in the world will make up for it and "give" you a win....

you miss one small part of the WHOLE equation and your mid pack or worse, a lapped kart in the way. tires hold you to the track, sure! admitted!! but if you don't have a chassis setup that lets you turn left and a motor that will accelerate off the corner and give you the top end you need....TIRES ALONE WILL NOT SAVE YOU!

ok...pandora is out and she's a b-word. we all want to go fast....we all want to win....we want it all. but that's not in the cards. i do think that a one engine rule and a complete set of rules governing that one engine will go a long way in helping, but i see too many variations with no positive incentives to advance. what i see is one engine with at least 4 weight classes and every race is only seeing 6 or less karts and the same karts are dominating. not saying that's wrong, but why have those "extra" weights when you can set it at one....say 375 and let the big dogs roar!! instead you have a 330, 350, 375 and 400 (only examples) and the same guys run in all of them...

gopherracing....i like the weights, but you have to control them...let them compete in no more than two of the three classes. this opens the third class up to letting others race for a win once in a while! i hate it when someone (even those that say "i've done my homework." which is a BS statement) dominates everything and everyone else is running for the first looser spot (2nd). i would actually start the class with a rookie class and that means.....if you have over say 5 races under your belt, you CAN'T race in the class......atually had one guy tell me one time that he can compete in the rookie class because he never raced at that track or class before, yet he was a multiple time champion at another track.....yeah....rookie....ya think?

ok...off the soap box.....

:)
How many tracks have you raced at?
How many AKRA rule stock races have you run?
In stock racing the motors are so close in HP, you have to find speed wherever you can, I agree if your setup is off motor isnt going to help, but pick the wrong tire on DIRT and watch what happens
Take a 150 lb. driver and a 150 Lb. kart, to get to the weight you suggested you will have to add 75 lb's to the kart, more if the driver is lighter, some 15 yr olds wont weigh 150, 1 weight class wont work, 2 on each end of the spectrum say a 300 and a 400, but you still would have cross over to some its not about winning its about track time
 
Mike, that is basically what we run at our track in stock, billet rod option, open header/muffler, 26.5cc, and 18# springs. We have Honda's that run with us from 2 different sanctioning bodies so the 18# springs were needed to get us up to speed with them, plus they last all season.
 
doesn't matter about the tracks (location or surface) or the akra rules. it was a simple statement that MOTOR + ENGINE + SETUP = WINS AND TOP THREE FINISHES (not yelling, just emphasis). if you look, a great running motor + the right tires - a weak or bad setup will not work...no matter what tires you have on. i'm talking about a setup that makes the kart push bad going into the turn and you have to get completely out of the throttle and on the brake....or it get wicked loose and you are almost spinning coming off the turns every lap...things like this....tires will not keep you from pushing nor will they compensate for a loose condition where the back end wants to be the front end. they will help you hold to the track, yes....but when the kart set-up is fighting the motor and the tires....then you haven't completed the equation. in your example, picking the wrong tires, then you have moved from motor + tires + setup = wins to motor + setup - tires = no wins....see what i'm saying? you have to be able to complete the whole thing, not just the tires, not jsut the motor, not jsut the setup....it ALL has to be there.

the weight can work (we do it right now)....all it takes is understanding that you want a single class with this motor, then an intermediate class where you can make these changes and then an advanced or pro class where you can do this...it's all about incentives to strive for faster karts, more powerful motors and advancement. all it takes is a few drivers to decide that it can be done and the way to do it. but too many are complacent in what is going on and "don't rock the boat" mentality sets in. then when something new is presented, they don't want to have anythign to do with it because "that's not the way we've always done it".

sorry....don't mean to step on toes....but without incentives and innovation and determination to make things better or to change things to accommodate more than one person.....orville and wilbur never would have left the ground...and big jim france never would have started nascar....

jsut something to think about!! :)
 
doesn't matter about the tracks (location or surface) or the akra rules. it was a simple statement that MOTOR + ENGINE + SETUP = WINS AND TOP THREE FINISHES (not yelling, just emphasis). if you look, a great running motor + the right tires - a weak or bad setup will not work...no matter what tires you have on. i'm talking about a setup that makes the kart push bad going into the turn and you have to get completely out of the throttle and on the brake....or it get wicked loose and you are almost spinning coming off the turns every lap...things like this....tires will not keep you from pushing nor will they compensate for a loose condition where the back end wants to be the front end. they will help you hold to the track, yes....but when the kart set-up is fighting the motor and the tires....then you haven't completed the equation. in your example, picking the wrong tires, then you have moved from motor + tires + setup = wins to motor + setup - tires = no wins....see what i'm saying? you have to be able to complete the whole thing, not just the tires, not jsut the motor, not jsut the setup....it ALL has to be there.

the weight can work (we do it right now)....all it takes is understanding that you want a single class with this motor, then an intermediate class where you can make these changes and then an advanced or pro class where you can do this...it's all about incentives to strive for faster karts, more powerful motors and advancement. all it takes is a few drivers to decide that it can be done and the way to do it. but too many are complacent in what is going on and "don't rock the boat" mentality sets in. then when something new is presented, they don't want to have anythign to do with it because "that's not the way we've always done it".

sorry....don't mean to step on toes....but without incentives and innovation and determination to make things better or to change things to accommodate more than one person.....orville and wilbur never would have left the ground...and big jim france never would have started nascar....

jsut something to think about!! :)

Your 1 weight class works for you because you run a S/A type motor, you also run a very large track where momentum is king, so your view is skewed, take a AKRA stock class engine to a smaller track where lifting is required, and a kart that weighs 300# race ready will out run one that is 400#
I WILL NOT bolt 75#'s of lead to a kart isnt happening

In stock class racing the motors are near equal in power, and the worng tires will be the difference between a win or dead last, we are talking dirt here, again you race on pavement where more grip is available
 
not arguing, i likew conversations like this!! you're misisng the point...you can't expect to win if you can't couple everything together. no matter what anyone will say, tires alone will not win races! tires alone do not determine who wins and who looses.....even a motor that is equal to everyone else will depend on setup and tires to do any good. if your percentages are off, if your stagger is no good, if you don't hit the right tire pressure, if you are too light on the left and too heavy in the front.....and we can go on.....all the coulda's, shoulda's and woulda's in the world will not bring new life to raged out tires, a kart that is unbalanced from the start or a motor that can't get out of it's own way. doesn't matter that i race on pavement or you race on dirt....handling issues are different, granted, but if you can't get the kart to handle because you don't have your numbers right, then you can't say that tires, tires, tires is the way to go....same arguement for the use of prep. yes, it has it's place on dirt. yes it can help you to gain top positions.....but no amount of prep on crappy tires with a bad setup and a motor that spews more oil that the exxon valdez will help!!!

taking all the differences out of asphalt or dirt....the equation still remains the same..... MOTOR + TIRES + SETUP = WINS

nothing else can be added to the math or taken away. look at it realistically or give it a try!!! take your kart and screw up all the numbers on your setup and use a motor that skips and bangs and smokes and doesn't have the compression of a banana and a set of tires that are out of round...then come back and tell everyone that because you used "XX" brand of prep, you won the feature....it's just not in the cards....

but i digress....yes, the single weight that we have works for us. but that's not to say that you have to weigh in at 375 or 400!! you tailor the rules to your track. the weight can be anything that you want it to be. we could have set ours at 300....but we all felt that 350 minimum was good enough for everyone...some play it real close, others (like me) are over that by a bit, but we've compensated with a good setup. the last race that i teched at (my kart was down for the season by that time with a ruined head)....the feature winner come across the scales at about 383, second was at 352 and third was at about 370ish....the minimum is what your looking at, not what the weight is that allows the kart to handle best! mine works at about 385 to 395....my son's handles best when he's at about 362....adding 75 pounds? i would prefer not to....but it can be safely done the right way and your numbers will come out and the kart will handle.....

jsut for the sake of conversation and please don't take what i say to heart....we all have a view point and different ways of expressing it!! :)
 

we only have so many locations to bolt lead, I have never bolted lead to the frame and I wont, it can and will change flex, I bolt lead to the seat
Why should I have to bolt that much lead? we race in lite and Med. never heavy
 
mike00b and old school mike are 100 percent correct.

Mikey56 is also 100% correct to say us Mikes are 100% correct...We 'Mikes' stick together... lol... I love coincidences, aka co-inky-dinks (my term, no one can use it!)...
 
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but i digress....yes, the single weight that we have works for us. but that's not to say that you have to weigh in at 375 or 400!! you tailor the rules to your track. the weight can be anything that you want it to be. we could have set ours at 300....but we all felt that 350 minimum was good enough for everyone...some play it real close, others (like me) are over that by a bit, but we've compensated with a good setup. the last race that i teched at (my kart was down for the season by that time with a ruined head)....the feature winner come across the scales at about 383, second was at 352 and third was at about 370ish....the minimum is what your looking at, not what the weight is that allows the kart to handle best! mine works at about 385 to 395....my son's handles best when he's at about 362....adding 75 pounds? i would prefer not to....but it can be safely done the right way and your numbers will come out and the kart will handle.....

jsut for the sake of conversation and please don't take what i say to heart....we all have a view point and different ways of expressing it!! :)
A kart can be made fast no matter the final weight, we have won races at 300 and at 375 min. its about %'s not total weight
1 weight at 350 I would have no problem with.
But your track is about momentum so the extra weight isnt as noticeable as it would be on a short track where you are off the throttle for a couple of seconds.
if the weight was 350 on a 10th mile track, and we are running an AKRA stock class, we come across the scales at 350 on the dot, a guy coming across at 390 is going to have a huge disadvantage
 
we only have so many locations to bolt lead, I have never bolted lead to the frame and I wont, it can and will change flex, I bolt lead to the seat
Why should I have to bolt that much lead? we race in lite and Med. never heavy

I can get 75 lbs on ya and never touch the frame :)
 
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